jmd

Hello all,

Not really a whinge, but more a request for advice from the wise heads on the board.

We flew MCO - LGW last night, with an onward connection LHR - JER today (all on the one ticket). The flight from MCO was delayed by nearly 3 hours because the baggage system at MCO broke down, causing check in chaos. Accordingly we arrived at LGW at 9.30am this morning instead of 6.40, turning what would have been a comfortable connection to the 12.10 LHR-JER into a dash. The M25 was kind and we made it to LHR at 11.05. There was a short queue for the self service desks so I went straight there with the bags. Got the dreaded error message and assumed we had been offloaded. I (politely) collared one of the staff at the entrance to the self service desks and asked her to help. She confirmed that we had been offloaded and made a call (to the turnaround manager?) to ask if we could still make the flight. At this point it was 11.12 am, so 58 mins prior to departure. The person on the other end said no (the lady at the desk said to whoever was on the other end ‘well if you’re saying no then I suppose that’s it’) - she then told us that they had already closed everything for the flight, with the result that we are now on the 16.05 and will be 4 hours late into JER, with a young child in tow.

I appreciate that it isn’t the end of the world, but it’s not brilliant after a 3 hour ground delay in MCO yesterday. Obviously the baggage issue wasn’t BA’s fault, but my strong sense of the interaction (perhaps unfairly) is that the the cause of our delay now is because whoever was dealing with the JER flight couldn’t be bothered to try to get us on it. For future reference, is there anything more I could have done? Which desk at T5 is best in this scenario? All 3 pax are silver, travelling in Y for this leg (rest of the itinerary was CW).

I’m guessing EC261 is out of the question given that the issue in MCO was out of BA’s control (not that I’m really bothered about it anyway). On the upside, the crew on the MCO-LGW in CW were absolutely excellent - BA at their best.

corporate-wage-slave

There wasn't a lot if you have checked in luggage. The baggage drop cut-off for short haul is 45 minutes, and that's computer controlled. So that wasn't the cause of you being offloaded, which I suspect was that BA had offloaded you once your LGW-LHR fell below MCT of 3 hours. Here's the big irony - if you had had separate tickets - and you know how we always say separate tickets are a risk with checked luggage - well you would have got on the service! Because MCT doesn't apply to separate bookings. Control are in the habit of saying no if there are baggage and families involved, they probably would have reloaded you if HBO and / or single and / or Goldies. I guess it's annoying for now but in a few days it probably won't matter. And it would not have mattered which part of the airport you used either. I can't see EC261 working here.

MCT is probaby too long, as you have shown it's perfectly possible to get between the airports in well under 90 minutes.

flyertalker00133

Why is EU261 not applicable here?

A broken baggage belt isn’t extraordinary circumstances.

corporate-wage-slave

No, but it's a belt that broke down at an airport not controlled by BA. The next words after extraordinary circumstances are "which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken." There would have been next to nothing BA could do to avoid the delay no matter what they had said or done about it. The best example I can think of is a strike by security staff at an airport - that's clearly excluded. But if the strike was by ground agents working for BA then that makes BA liable for compensation since clearly there things they can do about that.

cameramaker

Interesting…sounds like OP presented at bag drop in good time to meet conformance. BA could have reasonably allowed them on the flight rather than proactively offloading/IDBing them and therefore avoided the 4hr delay?

jeremyBA

EU261 must apply?

You got to the airport in good time and for reasons that are nothing to do with you but BA policy ( which you are not party to ) they denied you boarding.

corporate-wage-slave

That would be a more interesting claim, yes. And there are legal precedents in this area. The advertised deadline is 45 minutes. BA will simply say "not enough time", but due to their own website clearly stating 45 minutes then I can see CEDR taking the opposite view. This is assuming they were checked in through to JER at MCO.

ezefllying

I'm not sure why you wouldn't claim EC261 compensation.

First, I am not a UK or EU lawyer and I have no expertise in EC261, UK airline regulation, or BA's contract of carriage. So none of this is exactly reliable, expert advice.

In my opinion, you weren't denied boarding because of a baggage-belt issue in MCO. You were denied boarding because somebody offloaded you (prematurely) at LGW. They wrongly assumed you would no-show. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that you were, in fact, at Gatwick on time.

I'm also not sure why MCT justifies kicking you off the LGW-JER flight. Minimum connection time is a booking policy. As I understand it, a minimum connection time (which is often intended to provide a minimal buffer for late arrivals) does not mean "any flight that arrives after that time automatically justifies cancellation of the onward segment(s)." Your booking was fully in conformance with the MCT, I assume. It's just there was a delay, and the LGW staff mistakenly decided you'd be a no-show.

I won't offer any thoughts on liability for a baggage belt issue.

I would focus on the simple fact: You made the connection with time to spare and they offloaded you. EC261, please.

Ladyfliestheredwhiteandblues

Common sense and justice suggest that ezefllying has got this spot on. Why should the system or a person decide that you are not going to make it before you even try? A trouble free LGW to LHR via M25 was obviously doable although tight. Conformance is for when you actually fail to get to security in time, not because an agent or the system thinks that you might not. OP doesn’t seem to be kicking and screaming about this but it’s no joke to keep a small child entertained and happy after a tiring long haul. I’m sure you were all desperate for home.

Koru Flyer

I had a very similar one. Snow storm caused a delay from JFK/LHR, but due to being offloaded from LHR-ARN despite checked bags and presenting in good time at the transfer desks, led to a no questions asked 4xEU261.

i focused only on the ARN flight.

jmd

Thanks to all for helpful comments re EC261, and particularly to CWS for the explanation (fount of all knowledge as always!).

I do agree that it was pretty minor in the grand scheme of things, but with work on the morrow there is a meaningful difference between arriving in JER at 1.15pm and arriving at 5.15pm, which is why I felt rather aggrieved. I do find it strange that the system is set up to offload people before check in for the connecting flight closes, let alone conformance, just because the connection drops below MCT. As you note, it’s particularly silly here given the length of the MCT, and the fact that if we’d not been connecting pax there would have been no question of offloading us.

My real bugbear is that if BA are going to apply this policy (which they don’t publicise) then they should make every effort to accommodate you on your original flight if you get there in sufficient time. A literal shrug of the shoulders and the application of some arbitrary criteria (we’ll do it if you’re HBO/gold/not with kids) is just not good enough. It’s not as if she was confronted by 6 people and 15 bags to check - there were 3 of us with 2 bags (bag no 3 is still at MCO following the belt breakdown); clearly experienced travellers (I guessed the problem before she did) and ready to go straight through North security fast track and to the gate. Security was quiet so we’d probably even have had time for a coffee in GC north… oh well…

cauchy

Why is it not BA's fault?

• The airport is just like any other sub-contractor. Especially in the US, where airlines sometimes own / fully lease terminals and everything inside them, for example. I mean if pinning blame on a sub-contractor could get BA out of EC261, what they could do is create "BA wetlease airlines", sub-contract all flying to wetlease, and disclaim any EC261 liability for technical delays on the sub-contractor being out of their control etc. They'd never have to pay anything!
• Other airlines into and out of MCO don't seem to have this problem.

Edit: have a look at Twitter. Some tweets alledging only 1 BA operative running check-in. Crazy long queues.

corporate-wage-slave

Looking at last night's departure list from MCO from 16:00 to 18:00 last night, I would estimate that about half the flights were over an hour late, with substantial minority being over 2 hours late, and several flights dellayed longer than BA's service. AA and Frontier cancelled a serivce apiece, and jetBlue had a service delayed by 4 hours. The flights that were on time were to places like CLT, which presumably would not have lots of checked luggage from family vacations to worry about.

Now my view is that if you wet lease then you choose the operator, and can choose a different operator, or you can do it yourself. But BA can't choose which belt to use in MCO, and it's down to the airport (or the airport's contractor) to fix that belt. Ground handling you buy in, the airport nevertheless owns the core infrastructure of the building and airlines typically have little power to fix airport infrastructure. If the OP could prove that other airlines didn't have this problem or found an alternative solution that would be different, but the evidence doesn't looks to support that contention. However in any case as mentioned above, it's a hypothetical problem if there is a stronger argument closer to home.

When airlines have argued that contractors were responsible, then the courts have generally taken the view "well you employed the contractor, you can pass the bill on to them". That's not going to work with a state owned airport. It would't work with HAL either and that's not state owned.

carrotjuice

Fully agree. Yet in any company there are people thrusted into decision-making capacity who hide behind the anonymity of “the other end of the phone line” or “system says no” - yet are callously devoid of empathy because they don’t front the customer.

amarjitd

My family and I were caught up in the situation at MCO on Sunday night. We were travelling MCO to LHR which was scheduled after the MCO to LGW flight.
Sure, there were problems with the baggage belts but other airlines had the staff & resources in place to check people in and move the luggage manually .. I could see this happening with both the AA and LH queues.
The BA desk had two people (including one with only 6 days job experience) checking in two flights and one person trying to move the luggage. The Club World queue was unmanned for over two hours until we complained.
It was definitely a case of other airlines being able to find a solution.