Originally Posted by 13901

Frankly, it's not a comparison that holds up.

Doors closed, that seat isn't going to be sold. End of. There's no extra cost, no extra lost revenue. Sure, perhaps the staffer will have a glass or two from a champagne bottle that's going to be open anyway, and thrown out at the end of the flight, or a meal that will suffer the same fate.

As for people 'selling upgrades': it's really hard to do for onboard 'bump-ups'. You need to know exactly on which flight you'll be on. Then, you need to know that the SCCM/Captain will be onboard with you doing this, and since there's been a spate of snitching people are legitimately nervous about doing this. And, yes, some bright minds have tried selling their Premium Standbys or J-Class concessions on eBay. They didn't stay long in the company...

If FTers are so outraged at the thought of BA crews looking after one another, may I suggest flying with Finnair instead? I once used them on duty travel, while I worked for BA, to return from a trip to China. I had Business class priority, but at check-in I was put in Economy (middle seat!) as "I was staff". I thought, oh well, Business must be full, so didn't press on it. I then proceeded to board last, offered my paperwork to the crew and asked if I could be reinstated to Business if there were any seats open (I could see a few) and I was told "No, you're staff". Then, during meal service, one crew member told her colleague from across the aisle something like "13E is staff, serve him afterwards".

Originally Posted by orbitmic

I disagree. I think that the comparison is apt. There is a cost. It is small, marginal, but it is here - it will be the extra miniatures drank, the extra duvets to wash, the extra toiletry bags, etc. And to go back to MrALIG's point, note that there are supermarkets chains where the exact same tings he mentions have applied to products reaching their expiry date, which staff used to be able to take for free on the evening and can't anymore, and which the supermarket would throw away and destroy.

And again, this thread is not about BA staff travel upgrades but about upgrading one's family and friends (not BA staff) to empty J and F seats. To me - and I think to many others - those are very different situations. Indeed, there have been numerous threads on staff upgrades, and you can see that different people have different views, though I would note that on what is my personal main issue, BA (and other airlines) make a point that BA staff travelling in premium cabins should make themselves discreet. In fact, with staff, I think it is explicit a requirement if I'm not mistaken and I suspect that a BA staff gloating about it to other passengers could potentially be in some sort of trouble? It is just a lot harder to enforce with non-staff, precisely because they will likely care less about the airline's image.

Originally Posted by MrALIG

I thought someone might say that the incremental cost is low, and it is.

But it is the value being high which causes the problem. If empty business and first class seats are going to be given away then they could also be sold at a discount.

Originally Posted by 13901

Maybe I'm reading too much into this post, but I'm getting a bad vibe out of this sleuthing into exactly how much an on-board upgrade could cost. Miniatures, the washbag, one extra duvet to send to Berendsen... we're talking pennies. And, to be honest, it feels quite patronising. How would you react if I asked how much is the cost of that bloc of post-it notes you've taken from work? Or that pen? Or if you really really needed to drink all those coffees from the office machine? If we go down that route, where do we end?

Originally Posted by Okrib

Most high-end restaurants in London would have difficulties if business lunches to celebrate deals were banned.

Technically I think they're illegal? Years ago I used to work in a different industry and it was common courtesy to send a lawyer a bottle of champagne as a thank you when a deal was signed. This was then banned due to bribery, so it switched to going out for (more expensive) lunches instead.

Originally Posted by orbitmic

That happens to be exactly the point I’m making. If you read my post a bit above I was pointing out that precisely in recent years some cabin crew have been fired for taking miniatures with them at the end of the flight and some people have been fired from taking pens home from the office cupboard or expiring yoghurts that would have been thrown and destroyed or for letting their kids use the company owned laptop outside of office hours to do their homework or taking 5 toilet breaks when their supervisor considered 3 was enough.

i am not at all making the point that those things represent high costs or should be sackable, I’m instead simply answering your argument that MrALIG’s supermarket comparison is in apt because the ba upgrades represent no value whilst people getting fired by supermarkets are taking value away from them is mistaken in that many people in low paid jobs get fired for things that represent exactly as very little cost to their employer as those upgrades. Already. Every year. That is exactly the point MrALIG was making earlier and which you criticised as an inapt comparison.

or if you prefer, I was pre-emptively answering your “where would we be?” question above by saying we’d be exactly where we already are for many people with less well paid more vulnerable jobs.

Originally Posted by 1Aturnleft

My company is the same where a paranoid team enforce said compliance regulations at every opportunity. UK average salary earner here. We're not even allowed to accept anything more than a pen from suppliers and have to politely decline Christmas presents from customers should they feel generous enough to offer one. Different story for the directors though. My previous role was constantly pulling favours and freebies for them. Ultimately I was made redundant because I wasn't allowed access to them (their employees) anymore as it could be construed as offering favourable access over another supplier who didn't have such opportunities. Now that I am one of their employees I'm well aware in my current role that things still go on and discretion is key. I'm aware of colleagues who don't go shouting their mouths off and generally bragging that they've managed to get XY and Z and nobody is any the wiser. I dont begrudge them for it. Im just not brave enough to risk my job over it.

Originally Posted by Okrib

Most high-end restaurants in London would have difficulties if business lunches to celebrate deals were banned.

Technically I think they're illegal? Years ago I used to work in a different industry and it was common courtesy to send a lawyer a bottle of champagne as a thank you when a deal was signed. This was then banned due to bribery, so it switched to going out for (more expensive) lunches instead.

Originally Posted by bhbloke

As long as the senior mgmt of the company paying deems the costs to be reasonable and proportionate it won't be illegal. Also the recipient would also be expected to obtain approval to attend, so again costs would be expected to be controlled.

Originally Posted by fripperies

I was commenting on the scenario envisaged by PxC where someone who believes he's been deprived of a benefit by a non-paying passenger would be justified in being p*ssed off, kicking up a fuss, and letting cc know that a complaint would be going in. I said this would be a bit DYKWIA because it seems to me pulling rank ostentatiously, rather than being right or wrong, is the essence of DYKWIA behaviour.

.

Originally Posted by PxC

Calling it whatever you like, but yes I would be pulling rank as a paying customer that expects the business it’s paying and it’s employees not to act in ways of detriment to the service. If “etiquette” in this case is followed, there is no problems. Break the rules all you want if it doesn’t impact me, but those “perks” shouldn’t be at others expense.

Originally Posted by Waterhorse

Irrespective of the rights and wrongs of this particular event, the concept of a passenger, however commercially important to BA, pulling rank on the crew is the biggest laugh I’ve had all day. I suggest a brief perusal of the Air Navigation Order to remind yourselves as to the power, within the law, of the aircraft commander, and by extension their nominated deputies, the crew.