Jan 3, 2021, 2:19 am
Last edit by: corporate-wage-slave
Link to the full original text of the regulations in PDF format
Downgrades: Mennens case - calculation formula is in this post
Brexit and Covid pointers: see post 8
Click here for last year's (2020) thread.
Downgrades: Mennens case - calculation formula is in this post
Brexit and Covid pointers: see post 8
Click here for last year's (2020) thread.
The 2021/22 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004
Aug 12, 2022, 7:35 am
#2116
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
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The lower doors are usually opened first. There is a ZO and ZY on Amadeus, ZO meaning operational and ZY being rotational. The flight deck usually tells you the cause for the delay in the pre flight briefing back in London. But I can see what's happened here. Due to a shortage of A380 they had to run BA209 straight after the aircraft landed from its prior service SFO-LHR. This was the occasion of an on time arrival, so they would never normally put this on for BA209 which normally leaves before the SFO service arrives. So they must have been short of frames and this was the best they could do. You get 50% compensation, potentially, after 3 hours of delay 4 hoours for the full amoount.
Aug 12, 2022, 7:37 am
#2117
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Programs: BA GGL, BA LTG/GFL, Honors Diamond, Accor Platinum, Bonvoy Silver
Posts: 718
Could someone be kind enough and confirm the exact delayed arrival time for BA209 LHR- MIA 11 August. We were on the cusp of 4 hours delay - ba and flight aware say arrival was 21.44 - 6 minutes short of 4 hours. We were stood by the upper deck doors and they were still shut at 21.50.
Aug 12, 2022, 8:03 am
#2118
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 40
Thank you CWS and rjn21. BA stated delay was due to late incoming aircraft. I was just trying to work out whether we crossed the 4 hour mark, but there is no easy way to prove when doors opened, so will see what BA decide on now I’ve made my claim.
Aug 12, 2022, 10:00 am
#2119
Join Date: Nov 2021
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 331
In response to my earlier post and the reply from cws:
Finally getting closer... after quite a bit of to and fro, with 9,000 Avios being posted to my account (the difference paid for First, with a Companion Voucher, in the 50% off promotion, to Club) unrequested and a further 15,000 Avios 'Due to the length of time you've spent trying to resolve this matter and the incorrect information given' (I had previously been advised a refund of £1166.10 was being processed, but never materialised), I sent this:
I got this response yesterday:
I've gone back through the Mennens post by CWS in July 2016 and through the Wiki at the start here and am thinking my next step would be a reply along the lines that:
"Article 3 of EC261/2004 states the regulation "...shall apply to passengers having tickets issued under a frequent flyer programme or other commercial programme by an air carrier or tour operator", contra to the point you made in the second paragraph of your reply.
I concur that the tax charged is the same for First and Club World, but this is irrelevant as my claim for the cash component relates to your carrier surcharges (excluding tax), which should be taken into consideration for the purposes of determining the reimbursement owed, according to the rulings in the judgement of Steef Mennens v Emirates Direktion für Deutschland.
Please therefore settle this matter (which should have been settled within seven days of the original involuntary downgrade) as soon as possible by paying the sum last mentioned by me into my bank account. Alternatively, please confirm your answer will not change so that I can take the matter to CEDR/MCOL"
I realise I could probably go to either already, but time is not really of the essence here and it would be a lot easier if they just paid up - so would my reply above be okay or is it likely to stitch me up somehow?
Thanks
I did wonder about this... presumably you are referring to accepting the rebooking for the flights we actually flew, after the last cancellation in June 2021? The complication here is that at no time did we accept the downgrade - we did agree to a change of dates from the downgraded-but-cancelled flight, otherwise we could not have flown at all, which I believe is a precursor to being able to claim for a downgrade.
Perhaps I should concentrate the action/claim on the original downgrade only, but that would be against a flight that never took place. Awkward...
Understood. I think. That would then be 59,000 spent plus 59,000 for the companion voucher equivalent x 75%, ie 75% of 118,000 = 88,500 to be claimed for, plus...
... yes, £400 per person, (400x2) x 75% = £600
Presumably the next step is to respond to their contact from yesterday and advise I am not seeking compensation, but reimbursement under Article 10 of Regulation EC261/2004, and give the breakdown above?
Then raise a claim through CEDR when they turn me down, with the sums as above?
Perhaps I should concentrate the action/claim on the original downgrade only, but that would be against a flight that never took place. Awkward...
Understood. I think. That would then be 59,000 spent plus 59,000 for the companion voucher equivalent x 75%, ie 75% of 118,000 = 88,500 to be claimed for, plus...
... yes, £400 per person, (400x2) x 75% = £600
Presumably the next step is to respond to their contact from yesterday and advise I am not seeking compensation, but reimbursement under Article 10 of Regulation EC261/2004, and give the breakdown above?
Then raise a claim through CEDR when they turn me down, with the sums as above?
Finally getting closer... after quite a bit of to and fro, with 9,000 Avios being posted to my account (the difference paid for First, with a Companion Voucher, in the 50% off promotion, to Club) unrequested and a further 15,000 Avios 'Due to the length of time you've spent trying to resolve this matter and the incorrect information given' (I had previously been advised a refund of £1166.10 was being processed, but never materialised), I sent this:
Thank you for the reply yesterday. There appears to be both confusion and errors in this case. As previously acknowledged, I did receive a refund of 9000 Avios in July, representing the difference between the originally booked First Class tickets and the involuntary downgraded Club World tickets, at 50% of the normal rate due to the promotion at the time of booking. I acknowledge there would be no refund of taxes and/or surcharges, as these are the same in both classes.
However, as mentioned a few times now, I am also seeking reimbursement under the terms of Article 10 of Regulation EC261/2004, as per The Air Passenger Rights and Air Travel Organisers' Licensing (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 having been involuntary downgraded from First Class, as booked, to Club World.
In accordance with the Mennens formula for a Category 3 flight of 75% of the spent items, I calculate this to be (59,000 Avios x2)x 75% = 88,500 Avios, plus (£400 carrier surcharge x2)x 75% = £600.
Considering that Avios can be exchanged for Nectar points for a cash equivalent of 0.8 pence, the 88,500 Avios have a monetary value of £708.
£708 + £600 = £1308 - which is close to the £1166.10 I was advised was being processed as a 'refund' on 17th July and why I asked for the calculations.
The complimentary 15,000 Avios in light of the continuing length of time and incorrect information is very much appreciated, but I would like to get £1308 paid into my bank account at your earliest convenience.
Thank you
However, as mentioned a few times now, I am also seeking reimbursement under the terms of Article 10 of Regulation EC261/2004, as per The Air Passenger Rights and Air Travel Organisers' Licensing (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 having been involuntary downgraded from First Class, as booked, to Club World.
In accordance with the Mennens formula for a Category 3 flight of 75% of the spent items, I calculate this to be (59,000 Avios x2)x 75% = 88,500 Avios, plus (£400 carrier surcharge x2)x 75% = £600.
Considering that Avios can be exchanged for Nectar points for a cash equivalent of 0.8 pence, the 88,500 Avios have a monetary value of £708.
£708 + £600 = £1308 - which is close to the £1166.10 I was advised was being processed as a 'refund' on 17th July and why I asked for the calculations.
The complimentary 15,000 Avios in light of the continuing length of time and incorrect information is very much appreciated, but I would like to get £1308 paid into my bank account at your earliest convenience.
Thank you
Originally Posted by [email protected]
When a passenger is involuntary downgraded, under EU261 regulations they're entitled to a specified refund of the fare based on the distance of their journey. The 75% refund you mentioned would only apply to the fare of the downgraded sector on your booking and doesn't apply to the taxes.
I'm afraid our Reward Flight tickets don't have a fare. As our Reward Flights use a set amount of Avios, we therefore refund the difference in Avios. This is the 9,000 Avios you have been reimbursed. The taxes applicable for our First and Club World cabin are the same, therefore no tax refund would be due. Unfortunately there is no further reimbursement of cash or Avios due.
I'm afraid our Reward Flight tickets don't have a fare. As our Reward Flights use a set amount of Avios, we therefore refund the difference in Avios. This is the 9,000 Avios you have been reimbursed. The taxes applicable for our First and Club World cabin are the same, therefore no tax refund would be due. Unfortunately there is no further reimbursement of cash or Avios due.
"Article 3 of EC261/2004 states the regulation "...shall apply to passengers having tickets issued under a frequent flyer programme or other commercial programme by an air carrier or tour operator", contra to the point you made in the second paragraph of your reply.
I concur that the tax charged is the same for First and Club World, but this is irrelevant as my claim for the cash component relates to your carrier surcharges (excluding tax), which should be taken into consideration for the purposes of determining the reimbursement owed, according to the rulings in the judgement of Steef Mennens v Emirates Direktion für Deutschland.
Please therefore settle this matter (which should have been settled within seven days of the original involuntary downgrade) as soon as possible by paying the sum last mentioned by me into my bank account. Alternatively, please confirm your answer will not change so that I can take the matter to CEDR/MCOL"
I realise I could probably go to either already, but time is not really of the essence here and it would be a lot easier if they just paid up - so would my reply above be okay or is it likely to stitch me up somehow?
Thanks
Aug 12, 2022, 10:30 am
#2120
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
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Join Date: Feb 2010
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Posts: 63,809
You have a lot of patience, I would have gone off to CEDR/MCOL before this. But yes, if you don't mind this spinning around for a bit longer it seems ok to me. In essence carrier surcharges are purely a fare wrapped in a different label.
Aug 13, 2022, 4:42 am
#2121
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: UK (currently)
Programs: BA Gold (and many other greater and lesser distinctions)
Posts: 7,208
It's now 5 weeks since I submitted a claim for Mrs FF99, and nothing at all has been heard apart from the initial case number confirmation. It's a simple claim and identical to one which I submitted for myself and which was paid in full within a few weeks, before I had submitted Mrs FF99's.
I am not particularly interested in escalating, but wondered if there is anything I can do to prod the system.
I am not particularly interested in escalating, but wondered if there is anything I can do to prod the system.
Aug 13, 2022, 7:32 am
#2122
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,809
I'm not aware of anything. MCOL does tend to speed things up to avoid a default judgement, but nothing else seems to work at the moment. They will have I suspect low millions of claims similar to yours.
Aug 13, 2022, 12:39 pm
#2123
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: England
Programs: BAEC Gold, UA Mileage Plus, Hotels.com Gold, Marriott Bonvoy Platinum, Pizza Express Gold
Posts: 603
In response to my earlier post and the reply from cws:
Finally getting closer... after quite a bit of to and fro, with 9,000 Avios being posted to my account (the difference paid for First, with a Companion Voucher, in the 50% off promotion, to Club) unrequested and a further 15,000 Avios 'Due to the length of time you've spent trying to resolve this matter and the incorrect information given' (I had previously been advised a refund of £1166.10 was being processed, but never materialised), I sent this:
I got this response yesterday:
I've gone back through the Mennens post by CWS in July 2016 and through the Wiki at the start here and am thinking my next step would be a reply along the lines that:
"Article 3 of EC261/2004 states the regulation "...shall apply to passengers having tickets issued under a frequent flyer programme or other commercial programme by an air carrier or tour operator", contra to the point you made in the second paragraph of your reply.
I concur that the tax charged is the same for First and Club World, but this is irrelevant as my claim for the cash component relates to your carrier surcharges (excluding tax), which should be taken into consideration for the purposes of determining the reimbursement owed, according to the rulings in the judgement of Steef Mennens v Emirates Direktion für Deutschland.
Please therefore settle this matter (which should have been settled within seven days of the original involuntary downgrade) as soon as possible by paying the sum last mentioned by me into my bank account. Alternatively, please confirm your answer will not change so that I can take the matter to CEDR/MCOL"
I realise I could probably go to either already, but time is not really of the essence here and it would be a lot easier if they just paid up - so would my reply above be okay or is it likely to stitch me up somehow?
Thanks
Finally getting closer... after quite a bit of to and fro, with 9,000 Avios being posted to my account (the difference paid for First, with a Companion Voucher, in the 50% off promotion, to Club) unrequested and a further 15,000 Avios 'Due to the length of time you've spent trying to resolve this matter and the incorrect information given' (I had previously been advised a refund of £1166.10 was being processed, but never materialised), I sent this:
I got this response yesterday:
I've gone back through the Mennens post by CWS in July 2016 and through the Wiki at the start here and am thinking my next step would be a reply along the lines that:
"Article 3 of EC261/2004 states the regulation "...shall apply to passengers having tickets issued under a frequent flyer programme or other commercial programme by an air carrier or tour operator", contra to the point you made in the second paragraph of your reply.
I concur that the tax charged is the same for First and Club World, but this is irrelevant as my claim for the cash component relates to your carrier surcharges (excluding tax), which should be taken into consideration for the purposes of determining the reimbursement owed, according to the rulings in the judgement of Steef Mennens v Emirates Direktion für Deutschland.
Please therefore settle this matter (which should have been settled within seven days of the original involuntary downgrade) as soon as possible by paying the sum last mentioned by me into my bank account. Alternatively, please confirm your answer will not change so that I can take the matter to CEDR/MCOL"
I realise I could probably go to either already, but time is not really of the essence here and it would be a lot easier if they just paid up - so would my reply above be okay or is it likely to stitch me up somehow?
Thanks
That's what BA value them at, so that's what the court should value them at.
Last edited by omk298; Aug 13, 2022 at 1:29 pm
Aug 14, 2022, 10:52 am
#2124
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Helvetia
Programs: AS; BA Silver; UA; HH Gold; Sprüngli Connaisseur
Posts: 2,912
Just relaxing in the T4 Holiday Inn Express after a delay on BA713 from ZRH caused me to miss my connection on BA49 to SEA. Now I'll get to try EI's business class tomorrow.
The delay was due to the fact that BA had to change the plane on BA712 coming into ZRH from LHR. So, this should be due compensation as well as the hotel room and dinner that they gave me.
The delay was due to the fact that BA had to change the plane on BA712 coming into ZRH from LHR. So, this should be due compensation as well as the hotel room and dinner that they gave me.
Aug 15, 2022, 6:12 am
#2125
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Edinburgh
Programs: BAEC: Gold, HH:Diamond, Marriott: Platinum, IHG: Diamond Ambassador
Posts: 140
I had a cancellation on 2/7/22 for BOD-LGW with 13 days notice and submitted an EU261 claim. Initially BA said they didn't have a reason for the cancellation but have now come back saying it was due to french ATC strikes that day. I wasn't aware of any strieks and we flew back on another flight at roughly the same time on same date. I can't see any evidence for strikes affecting BOD on 2/7/22. Should I ask BA to provide proof of this being the case or is there any other way to verify this?
Aug 15, 2022, 6:19 am
#2126
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
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Join Date: Feb 2010
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There have been a number of posts over the last few months relating to BOD cancellations, where strikes have been mentioned, there are some upthread. From what I can make out, there have been strikes affecting this airport off and on, but in many cases easyJet has continue to operate at the same time as cancelled BA services. I wouldn't personally waste time with Customer Relations, but would move to CEDR or MCOL. So my advise would be to ask BA to confirm that their answer will not change, and go from there.
Aug 15, 2022, 5:21 pm
#2127
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Edinburgh
Programs: BAEC: Gold, HH:Diamond, Marriott: Platinum, IHG: Diamond Ambassador
Posts: 140
There have been a number of posts over the last few months relating to BOD cancellations, where strikes have been mentioned, there are some upthread. From what I can make out, there have been strikes affecting this airport off and on, but in many cases easyJet has continue to operate at the same time as cancelled BA services. I wouldn't personally waste time with Customer Relations, but would move to CEDR or MCOL. So my advise would be to ask BA to confirm that their answer will not change, and go from there.
Aug 16, 2022, 5:00 am
#2128
Join Date: Feb 2020
Programs: BA GGL, HH Diamond
Posts: 12
I’m sure there are many in the same position, but I’ve had a case with CEDR that they accepted on 6 June. Two deadlines have now passed and on both of these dates BA requested extensions. These requests were granted by CEDR in spite of there being no compelling reason offered for the request - ie no reasons were given at all. The new (third) deadline is now the end of This month. I strongly suspect I have no choice other than to wait this one out but I’d be very grateful for a steer if there’s something I can do to up the ante. I do wonder if this process has any teeth at all!? Thanks in anticipation.
Aug 16, 2022, 7:15 am
#2129
Join Date: Apr 2014
Programs: BAEC Gold. Hilton Diamond
Posts: 409
I’m sure there are many in the same position, but I’ve had a case with CEDR that they accepted on 6 June. Two deadlines have now passed and on both of these dates BA requested extensions. These requests were granted by CEDR in spite of there being no compelling reason offered for the request - ie no reasons were given at all. The new (third) deadline is now the end of This month. I strongly suspect I have no choice other than to wait this one out but I’d be very grateful for a steer if there’s something I can do to up the ante. I do wonder if this process has any teeth at all!? Thanks in anticipation.
Aug 16, 2022, 8:06 am
#2130
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
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CEDR is paid by BA to offer this service, and this one of the various things we can point to that indicates that CEDR is less than fully independent. Now from CEDR's point of view I can see they would be reluctant to make rulings based purely on the claimant's information, but that would be what would happen with MCOL, and a default judgement thus found against BA. And that's precisely why BA can find the resources for MCOL but not for CEDR. CEDR changed their rules over this. Previously they had this option for extending timelines to customers who were slow replying (an option which I have no evidence that it was ever used), but not for the airline. But they changed this early into the pandemic. I think this is just very wrong of CEDR to do this, but there isn't much you can do about it, unfortunately, other than perhaps complain to the CAA's Consumer team.