Have BA changed the 'Significant Change' from 2hrs to 4hrs
Oct 21, 2020, 4:59 pm
#16
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
IANAL. EC261 is a HUGE mess. For instance, the law is NOT explicitly saying that a delay of 3+ hours (not caused by extraordinary circumstances) entitles you to compensation. Instead, it was an ECJ ruling from 2009 (?) which declared that such a delay is equivalent to a cancellation with regards to compensation. Even more so, the regulation doesn't even define what is an "extraordinary circumstance", courts had to define that, too. Those are just two examples of the vast incompleteness of that regulation.
It has been left to the courts to decide which schedule changes are to be treated analogously to a cancellation (article 5 covers the latter). My understanding is that a substantial schedule change gives you the rights of article 8 (reimbursement and, if applicable, return to point of origin, re-routing at earliest opportunity, or re-routing at the convenience of the pax) in several countries to which EC261 applies. And article 5 of EC261 gives an orientation as to what is substantial, which is then extrapolated outside the realm of compensation. So some federal courts have ruled that, for example, a -2h schedule change you were informed about, say, 21 days before departure, gives you the right to reimbursement. (Obv, no compensation as you were informed 14+ days in advance.)
EDIT: I guess it's a little more than "my understanding is". I've won cases vs. several airlines in this regard using a lawyer from Berlin. Like, LH, FR, or IB refusing to rebook on another carrier after a schedule change. So I requested a rebooking on another carrier, setting a time limit. They usually don't react or offer an unacceptable change on their own metal. You have to rebook on your own dime and get your money back in court.
It has been left to the courts to decide which schedule changes are to be treated analogously to a cancellation (article 5 covers the latter). My understanding is that a substantial schedule change gives you the rights of article 8 (reimbursement and, if applicable, return to point of origin, re-routing at earliest opportunity, or re-routing at the convenience of the pax) in several countries to which EC261 applies. And article 5 of EC261 gives an orientation as to what is substantial, which is then extrapolated outside the realm of compensation. So some federal courts have ruled that, for example, a -2h schedule change you were informed about, say, 21 days before departure, gives you the right to reimbursement. (Obv, no compensation as you were informed 14+ days in advance.)
EDIT: I guess it's a little more than "my understanding is". I've won cases vs. several airlines in this regard using a lawyer from Berlin. Like, LH, FR, or IB refusing to rebook on another carrier after a schedule change. So I requested a rebooking on another carrier, setting a time limit. They usually don't react or offer an unacceptable change on their own metal. You have to rebook on your own dime and get your money back in court.
This won't get easier with the passage of time. The UK has adopted the Regulation into its domestic law and "it" will thus survive Brexit. But, once the UK has exited, ECJ precedent won't bind the UK courts. Thus, should the ECJ choose, once again, to define what is an "extraordinary circunmstance," UK courts might well not find that persuasive.
Oct 21, 2020, 5:18 pm
#17
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Tenerife
Programs: BA Gold, BA AMEX PP, Amex Platinum
Posts: 434
Just read this article on MSE about this very subject, and it seems that it's up to the airline what is a significant change.
My mild understanding of contract / consumer law is you are bound by / agree to the T&Cs / CoC in force when you've booked as long as they are not deemed unfair. They shouldn't be able to move the goalposts in their favour beyond that.
FWIW I had a flight re-timed 1:50 earlier some time ago & a couple of weeks back some 48 hours out I rang the gold line and asked them if a free change was possible onto another flight 20 minutes later than time of the original flight. They obliged. { The latter flight was more expensive to change to online. }
Oct 22, 2020, 3:24 am
#18
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 471
But, that is the nature of law in most Rule of Law nations. Legislatures enact law, courts interpret those laws and the decisions of the courts, at least at sufficiently high enough levels, are precedential.
This won't get easier with the passage of time. The UK has adopted the Regulation into its domestic law and "it" will thus survive Brexit. But, once the UK has exited, ECJ precedent won't bind the UK courts. Thus, should the ECJ choose, once again, to define what is an "extraordinary circunmstance," UK courts might well not find that persuasive.
This won't get easier with the passage of time. The UK has adopted the Regulation into its domestic law and "it" will thus survive Brexit. But, once the UK has exited, ECJ precedent won't bind the UK courts. Thus, should the ECJ choose, once again, to define what is an "extraordinary circunmstance," UK courts might well not find that persuasive.
We don't know what kind of ticket the OP holds. But if it's an itinerary UK-EU, and in light of the fact that the inbound was changed by by substantially more, it might be legally more promising to force BA to a full refund based on the change to the inbound. I admit this is a purely academic discussion at this point. It seems OP is located in the UK. And few lawyers from the UK will take on a case which requires them to work with a legal jurisdiction of, say, Spain because the inbound is MAD-LHR. So for all practical purposes, the better option is to pay the relatively low fee for cancelling an avios booking.
Oct 22, 2020, 4:39 am
#19
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2008
Programs: SPG-Plat, Hilton-Diamond, Club Carlson-Silver, Cathay-Diamond, Virgin-Gold
Posts: 2,183
For EC261, what matters is the departure airport.
We don't know what kind of ticket the OP holds. But if it's an itinerary UK-EU, and in light of the fact that the inbound was changed by by substantially more, it might be legally more promising to force BA to a full refund based on the change to the inbound. I admit this is a purely academic discussion at this point. It seems OP is located in the UK. And few lawyers from the UK will take on a case which requires them to work with a legal jurisdiction of, say, Spain because the inbound is MAD-LHR. So for all practical purposes, the better option is to pay the relatively low fee for cancelling an avios booking.
We don't know what kind of ticket the OP holds. But if it's an itinerary UK-EU, and in light of the fact that the inbound was changed by by substantially more, it might be legally more promising to force BA to a full refund based on the change to the inbound. I admit this is a purely academic discussion at this point. It seems OP is located in the UK. And few lawyers from the UK will take on a case which requires them to work with a legal jurisdiction of, say, Spain because the inbound is MAD-LHR. So for all practical purposes, the better option is to pay the relatively low fee for cancelling an avios booking.
Oct 22, 2020, 5:47 am
#20
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: near Heathrow
Programs: BA GGL/CCR, GfL (OWE), SA LifePlat (*G), BD Gold to the end, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 2,911
4 hours is a very long requirement.
I’ve had a schedule change to a domestic flight meaning I arrive on a long haul flight at 1525, and my connection which did leave at 1640 now leaves at 2050. Fortunately it’s 10 minutes over the 4 hours so I could cancel but if it had been 10 minutes less, I’m sure some would consider arriving at 10pm to be a significant change from arriving at 6.05pm, particularly if onward car or public transport travel was required at the destination.
I’ve had a schedule change to a domestic flight meaning I arrive on a long haul flight at 1525, and my connection which did leave at 1640 now leaves at 2050. Fortunately it’s 10 minutes over the 4 hours so I could cancel but if it had been 10 minutes less, I’m sure some would consider arriving at 10pm to be a significant change from arriving at 6.05pm, particularly if onward car or public transport travel was required at the destination.
Oct 22, 2020, 8:45 am
#22
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 7,464
For those of us who are daytrippers or who do short in and outs of London, a 4 hour change is significant. Imagine a business traveler ex-FRA or ZRH on the early 7am flight to LON, then on the evening 5-7pm flight back - a 4 hour change makes the trip almost unfeasible. I cannot imagine that the business community would be very forgiving when indeed they start to travel again in large volumes compared to now. It could be a temporary change in the current circumstances, but will BA will find themselves uncompetitive in future.
Oct 23, 2020, 10:36 am
#23
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: E14, LON
Programs: Virtuoso TA; SELECT TA; BAEC Gold; Hilton Honors Diamond; IHG Plantinum Amb
Posts: 239
It could be even worse...! I was looking at the BA Holiday T&Cs (https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb...and-conditions) and they seem to define "significant change" as 12 hours or more:
8.3. We are only liable to you for cancellations or significant changes to your booking by us. A significant change is one that we make to your booking before your departure that affects an essential term of your contract. Examples of a significant change includes changes by us to:
your destination area;
your booked accommodation to that of an alternative property of a lower rating;
your departure times or accommodation occupancy periods by more than 12 hours.
your destination area;
your booked accommodation to that of an alternative property of a lower rating;
your departure times or accommodation occupancy periods by more than 12 hours.
Oct 23, 2020, 11:25 am
#24
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London
Posts: 726
It could be even worse...! I was looking at the BA Holiday T&Cs (https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb...and-conditions) and they seem to define "significant change" as 12 hours or more:
Likely this wouldn't stand up if taken to court. I'd just raise a dispute on the credit card.
Oct 24, 2020, 5:30 am
#25
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London
Programs: Mucci. Nothing else matters.
Posts: 38,644
It could be even worse...! I was looking at the BA Holiday T&Cs (https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb...and-conditions) and they seem to define "significant change" as 12 hours or more:
The apparent oddity of that provision may come from the way that some bookings now qualify to be "package holidays" even though they are a long way from what package holidays were when those T&C were first written.
Oct 24, 2020, 6:56 am
#26
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 305
I sort of agree with this, although business travel is typically booked at relatively short notice and often full fare (with full flex) - so I’m not sure how likely most business travellers are to be impacted.
Oct 24, 2020, 7:24 am
#27
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: London, UK
Programs: BA Gold, UA Nobody, Hilton Gold
Posts: 2,372
You're correct that the more short notice type of business bookings does limit the impact somewhat as I guess schedule changes are less frequent close in. Although I have had 2+ hr shifts of flight times the night before a flight, which on a day trip can make the whole journey unviable.
Nov 1, 2020, 1:24 am
#28
Moderator: British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Scotland & London
Programs: BA GGL, IHG Diamond Ambassador, Hilton Diamond, Hyatt Globalist, Mucci des Salons Ouvrants
Posts: 3,026
So my flight to Istanbul was cancelled and I was put on a different flt number 3:35 hr earlier. Is this still classed a significant change? Ie not just retimed but flight cancelled and put on another one?
I am assuming I will only be entitled to a voucher but just wanted to check understanding!
aks120
I am assuming I will only be entitled to a voucher but just wanted to check understanding!
aks120
Nov 1, 2020, 2:29 am
#29
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,600
So my flight to Istanbul was cancelled and I was put on a different flt number 3:35 hr earlier. Is this still classed a significant change? Ie not just retimed but flight cancelled and put on another one?
I am assuming I will only be entitled to a voucher but just wanted to check understanding!
aks120
I am assuming I will only be entitled to a voucher but just wanted to check understanding!
aks120
Nov 1, 2020, 2:44 am
#30
Moderator: British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Scotland & London
Programs: BA GGL, IHG Diamond Ambassador, Hilton Diamond, Hyatt Globalist, Mucci des Salons Ouvrants
Posts: 3,026
Thanks - will phone and ask! I will let you know how I get on.
aks120
aks120