fotographer

I think it BA not keeping up with other airlines that have invested in better soft and hard product. Just flew Qatar ATL to BOM in J, normally would do AA/BA
the plane/seats/FA/food /service way about BA.
I see that BA is slowing upgrading their J product on some planes, it looks nice, but of course it will never be used for LHR-BOM (well at least not for a very long time)

I think that sometimes BA just thinks it really does not have to worry so much to improve based on its own image from the past.. meanwhile other airlines are trying to get better due to stronger competition (Asian airlines)
Will I continue to fly with BA... of course, but.. hey that is my choice , even knowing that its not so great

orbitmic

Which one do you suggest is state owned? AF? SQ? LH? CX? JL? KE??… Please do give us details.

DFB_london

ung1

What is subjectively a great deal to the OP is meaningless, I think. BA sell LHR-ORD return in F for 2k GBP and up - to me 2600 USD Y/F would be a bad deal. But I guess BA gets hate because when compared to other products branded and marketed as international First Class, their product is inferior, and inconsistent. Probably no carrier ticks all the boxes in F, but BA seems to lack a USP beyond non-stop service between London and places people want to travel.

108912

I think we have to look at the first class model as a whole. It has limited demand in limited markets in terms of profitability. For most airlines it is one of the most unprofitable cabin due to a number of factors - the price people are actually paying to sit up there (no, not many are paying those £10K fares you see flounced about), the amount of real estate that the larger seats take up, the increased crew complements required.

In fact in this article the previous AF CEO talks in detail about how 'no one is making money in First Class'. I'm sure he doesn't know that for sure and there are probably some airlines that do (and I imagine even BA does on certain routes) but his point being that First Class is offered as a 'marketing gimmick' and something that an airline just has to have if it is to be taken seriously on the world stage and deemed a certain level.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a...s-5k0bfl7j68w#

So when you look at airlines in the Middle East and Asia nearly all of them have First Class. Although even in these regions First Class is taking a hit. QR only offers it on their A380's. In Asia airlines like CX and TG have decided to take delivery of new aircraft without a First Cabin. Malaysian and Korean (on some aircraft) are rebranding what was F into 'super business class'.

When you look at airlines outside Asian and the Middle East it is even more pronounced. In europe some airlines offer a wonderful First experience. LH/AF/LX are truly wonderful products. But they are appearing on fewer and fewer of their aircraft and typically only have 4-8 seats on each. SAA did away with F a long time ago. In Australia QF took delivery of their new flagship 787's flying non stop between Perth and the UK without a First cabin instead only retaining it on the A380. In the USA only AA has a longhaul F cabin and only on a limited number of aircraft. In South America the last airline to have F TAM is phasing it out.

And then you have BA which is an odd ball when it comes to First. A european airline with First Class on a good 75% of their fleet and typically 14 seats in each of these cabins. That is a LOT of First Class seats to sell in a market with a very limited demand in terms of who will actually pay the big bucks to sit in that cabine (regardless of how good or bad the product is).

Gatwick Alan

I think Jagboi said it very well upthread. For Oldies like me, we can remember when you got on a BA plane in a foreign land and it felt like a comfort blanket was being put around you. Of course its not like that anymore and BA is just like any other airline and should be considered as such. Having said that the first class offering is acceptable, but not spectacular. Over the last few years I have got some tremendous bargains in BA First. Is it as good as SQ, EK, etc, etc, No, but when im sitting in the seat I am not comparing it, I am just looking for a comfortable and value for money flight

Where BA started getting really hated was when they downgraded the service in economy so that the second meal was a snack sized twix. BA in time reversed this, but the damage had been done, people looked at BA in a more negative way and everything they do now tends to be looked at through negative eyes.

Its a shame, I used to love BA, but now find that AA offer a better product for my TATL trips, especially in business.

lost_in_translation

The F travel videos are normally posted by bloggers who view everything through the prism of booking with miles generated from US credit cards. If your choice is using the same number of limited AA miles to book EY F Apartments rather than BA F then sure, BA F seems like a terrible deal. However, that's clearly not the way most customers who pay with cash think about it (who, at the end of the day, are the ones that actually matter to the airline rather than the bloggers on mileage redemptions who are just there to fill up empty seats and share the fuel bill). The bloggers view things without reference to where the flight is going or how much a cash ticket would actually cost, all they care about is whether the on board product is luxurious.

On direct routes from London to North America, BA F is the best class of travel to basically every airport which is why passengers continue to use it. I agree with the poster above who stated that to Asia BA F compares less favourably and I don't fly BA long haul to Asia as a result. I do, however, recognise BA F has degraded in quality over time which is sad, but prices have come down massively in relative terms (and quite possibly absolute terms, too).

A P Yu

BAs monopoly position at heathrow allows them to continue to behave in the way they do. For too long has BA stood for Bloody Arrogant in some circles. Twenty years ago they used to actually train the mantra that 'customers know nothing' - they haven't kept up with the changing world which means this is no longer the case.

stuvoi

Just to add..
In April my wife and I travelled to Bermuda in F and returned in CW. The difference in price between the two was £200
Our experience in F from the service and attention was quite wonderful, okay, so it didn't have the separate bar area, or some of the additional luxuries that other airlines have (and flying from Gatwick, we missed out on the Concorde Lounge experience), but from the soft products, dining and crew, it made the flight a special experience (it was one of the holidays we had to celebrate our silver anniversary.
On the way back, in CW, her key observation was that the CW seat was a bit pokey after experiencing the seat in F
For a 6-7 hour flight, I would not pay £10k for the experience, but for £200 upgrade, definately worth the money.

orbitmic

Everything we know about airlines' revenue management suggests that your suggested causality is symmetrically wrong. The principle of RM is that airlines sell the products that they have for as much as they possibly can, and will thus reduce yields (ie in practice, the average fare) by as much as is needed to fill the cabin.

In short, unless a Revenue Management revolution occurred whilst we were all asleep, it is not that BA keep their product below AF, EK, or JL because they offer low promotional fares, but rather that they offer low promotional fares because otherwise, they cannot fill their cabins.

A more combination of the two facts is that even though they are now in the process of correcting this, thus far, BA have kept such high numbers of F seats to fill on so many routes that they can only do so at disappointingly low prices for them, and that in return, the low yield they get from F means that they have to propose a product which is still cheap enough to put together for the cabin not to lose cash. In other words, there is not enough of a consumer base of a top F product for BA to sell all their current F seats with an AF P product at AF P prices, so instead, BA have to design a product which can interest 14 people on low yield flights at a price 14 people will pay.

PS: note that the "why all the hate?" threads are fairly common on this forum -- though not as much as the "I hate BA" threads which in practice tend to be about exactly the same arguments in reverse. A search will point out to quite a few others where a more comprehensive list of useful answers may be found.

flatlander

If BA is that awful and customers demand a better First experience, there is absolutely nothing to stop airlines from offering it.

Airlines like Delta, Virgin, SAS, SAA, KLM, NZ... all of whom have decided they can't produce a First product that makes money and have given up on it altogether.

Meanwhile, airlines that do offer an F class could easily capture that large customer base demanding a better experience than BA F. So, JL, QR, United, ANA, Emirates, Etihad, QF could expand their F offerings and take market share from BA.

Yet all of them have decided not to do that.

So if BA are arrogant and incompetent, I would expect their competitors to take their market share with a better F product.

That is not happening today.

subject2load

DYKWIA

You do realise that LHR is slot constrained and there are rules about who can fly where? So, it's not possible for the airlines above to take BAs market share. I'm sure EK would love the chance to fly 4-5 A380's from LHR-JFK everyday with their F class.

stuvoi

Yep, won't pay £2,500 to go F to Bermuda (even as a base fare, let alone as an upgrade from CW). Bermuda does seem to be a bit different from most of the other routes I fly on from a F perspective, as have often seen F and CW completely full with economy almost empty. (especially on the red eye back to London)

The Geek

I have done a few long haul biz flights on EVA, MX and BA, and sure the product isn't up to the standard of the Asian carriers. I have nothing to complain about though as my primary reason for flying biz LH is I want a bed at the best possible price. Even though CW is space lacking compared to most, I actually love the window seats for privacy when travelling alone, and the middle pairs when travelling with Mrs Geek.

On the SH side, really can't see the value of travelling CE, especially when you are Silver+ unless you need the TPs.

But where BA does come into it's own is the SH economy experience when you are Silver+ and that beats all the LC merchants hands down { Especially O'Larey air }, and why I will happily give them nearly all my ex UK SH business going forward even if it means a TP run or 2 every couple of years.