Club World: How do they get away with it?
Sep 10, 2018, 5:27 pm
#196
Join Date: Dec 2017
Programs: BA Gold, Hilton Silver,
Posts: 151
BA club world is the worst J product out there on possibly one of the worst airlines period. OP was dead on with this comments as I thought the same after flying them to LHR and back last year from the US. The food is simply inedible, and the seat is awful and you have to climb over the passenger next to you. The planes are flying relics too.
Rubbish there are so many J products worse than Club World. I admit that it is not without fault but at least you know exactly what are you going to get seat wise when you book CW with BA.
AF and TK on the other hand... unless you get their 777-300 then their offering is worse than club world many of the AF A330 don't even have lie flats
KLM and LH have better storage but offer less privacy than CW and you still have to climb over someones legs if you are in the window seat.
I believe DL still fly 757 across the pond with domestic first class seats sold as business
QF A380 product is an even less private version of LH's offering
You could even make a case for CW over EK (seat wise only I might add). The A380 seats are far too narrow 17.5 inches all to accommodate a mini bar that keeps your drinks nice and warm and the new 777 offering although very nice looking still has middle seats with your face right next to two strangers when asleep ( perhaps I'm pushing it a bit with EK?)
CW is no Q suites thats for sure but it is far from the worse J product out there
Sep 10, 2018, 7:24 pm
#197
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: All over the place often South Wales and Lake District
Programs: BA Gold for Life Accor Platinum
Posts: 4,552
Flight back to CWL better as 787, but that is the shorter of the two flights. Mindnumbingly dull 9 hours in DOH in the middle of the outbound trip. Didn't chance a trip into the city - might have done with a daytime stop.
Last edited by itsmeitisss; Sep 10, 2018 at 7:32 pm
Sep 10, 2018, 9:30 pm
#198
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Bristol
Programs: BA Silver, Hilton Gold, Caesars Diamond
Posts: 924
I flew from DOH to ICN with QR and going back the same way in a few days. 773 so climbing over someone guaranteed, plus coffin for the feet, also the bed is actually higher than CW so you have to climb higher. You have to climb over a higher point of your neighbour's body, so more likely to disturb. Oh and no privacy at all in the window seat whereas plenty of that in CW. Even the "favourite business class in the world" is pretty naff sometimes.
Flight back to CWL better as 787, but that is the shorter of the two flights. Mindnumbingly dull 9 hours in DOH in the middle of the outbound trip. Didn't chance a trip into the city - might have done with a daytime stop.
Flight back to CWL better as 787, but that is the shorter of the two flights. Mindnumbingly dull 9 hours in DOH in the middle of the outbound trip. Didn't chance a trip into the city - might have done with a daytime stop.
Considering the bad mouthing of BA on here, I was pleasantly surprised with my CW seat on the upper deck of the A380, extra room next to the window and direct aisle access (in my case). The inconsistency in both the hard and soft product could easily change that by a significant amount, which I guess is the problem. My food on that BA flight was as good as anything I’ve had on QR, but that is very likely to be an exception and the average will almost certainly be lower.
BA, please go with the Apex Suite for your new CW, you would actually have a fantastic hard product for once. Won’t happen, but we can only dream.
Sep 10, 2018, 9:35 pm
#199
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: All over the place often South Wales and Lake District
Programs: BA Gold for Life Accor Platinum
Posts: 4,552
Just another example of it all being individual opinion, as I’m a big fan of the QR ‘old’ seats. Very spacious, and I would prefer this seat over a reverse herringbone if travelling with someone I know. Flying solo, not so great obviously.
Considering the bad mouthing of BA on here, I was pleasantly surprised with my CW seat on the upper deck of the A380, extra room next to the window and direct aisle access (in my case). The inconsistency in both the hard and soft product could easily change that by a significant amount, which I guess is the problem. My food on that BA flight was as good as anything I’ve had on QR, but that is very likely to be an exception and the average will almost certainly be lower.
BA, please go with the Apex Suite for your new CW, you would actually have a fantastic hard product for once. Won’t happen, but we can only dream.
Sep 10, 2018, 10:26 pm
#200
FlyerTalk Evangelist, Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Somewhere between 0 and 13,000 metres high
Programs: AF/KL Life Plat, BA GGL+GfL, ALL Plat, Hilton Diam, Marriott Gold, blablablah, etc
Posts: 30,547
Rubbish there are so many J products worse than Club World. I admit that it is not without fault but at least you know exactly what are you going to get seat wise when you book CW with BA.
AF and TK on the other hand... unless you get their 777-300 then their offering is worse than club world many of the AF A330 don't even have lie flats
KLM and LH have better storage but offer less privacy than CW and you still have to climb over someones legs if you are in the window seat.
I believe DL still fly 757 across the pond with domestic first class seats sold as business
QF A380 product is an even less private version of LH's offering
You could even make a case for CW over EK (seat wise only I might add). The A380 seats are far too narrow 17.5 inches all to accommodate a mini bar that keeps your drinks nice and warm and the new 777 offering although very nice looking still has middle seats with your face right next to two strangers when asleep ( perhaps I'm pushing it a bit with EK?)
CW is no Q suites thats for sure but it is far from the worse J product out there
AF and TK on the other hand... unless you get their 777-300 then their offering is worse than club world many of the AF A330 don't even have lie flats
KLM and LH have better storage but offer less privacy than CW and you still have to climb over someones legs if you are in the window seat.
I believe DL still fly 757 across the pond with domestic first class seats sold as business
QF A380 product is an even less private version of LH's offering
You could even make a case for CW over EK (seat wise only I might add). The A380 seats are far too narrow 17.5 inches all to accommodate a mini bar that keeps your drinks nice and warm and the new 777 offering although very nice looking still has middle seats with your face right next to two strangers when asleep ( perhaps I'm pushing it a bit with EK?)
CW is no Q suites thats for sure but it is far from the worse J product out there
First, note that QF 380s are getting refitted with the excellent J seats they have on the 330s and 789s, so whilst you say has been true historically on that one, it won't be any more. I'm also not aware of DL flying domestic 757s transatlantic nowadays but I may well be wrong on that as they have so many routes and I have obviously not tried all of them. That said, I know some people do not like the DL 767 seats which they find too narrow but I personally prefer all long haul DL seat configurations to CW.
I also do not agree that CW offers privacy. CW window seats offer excellent privacy (and solo centre seats in 2-3-2 cabins), which is something quite different, but I think you actually get a much greater sense of privacy in KL and LH seats (and I was and still am one of the LH sceptics) than in other CW seats, including aisles where you are so close and unprotected from your neighbour.
Like you I do not like the TK configuration that much. However, it is only fair to point out that the TK soft product is heads and shoulders above the BA one (even post-changes which have improved CW significantly) and one of the best around.
In any case, I agree with the general point that to me, those who claim that CW is something like the worst J around , some glorified premium economy, or some similar radical catastrophe are using quite a bit of green dye to colour the neighbour's grass. It is, however, decidedly average. I still like using it personally to the extent that I tend to book my flights in advance and with status can virtually always get a window seat and usually one of the "good" ones, and so much the better if it is BA's oldest planes (ie the slowly disappearing 747s), and I have acknowledged many times that the new CW soft product concept has been a very significant improvement which, whilst not making the BA soft product world leading by any standard, has at least put much of it on par with the good half of the competition, but without a window, I find the experience frankly underwhelming (to the point that when travelling with my partner, we now get two windows rather than sit together).
So whilst by no means the worst, it is also not a case that only the Q suite and a handful of products would be preferable to CW. It is more that CW has slipped from world leading when first launched to comparatively good about 5-10 years ago to below average by today's standards, and much of the competition is improving by big to giant leaps even if they have not yet finished converting all of their fleet in some cases (e.g. AF as you very rightly point out). Time to bring the new CW.
Sep 11, 2018, 1:45 am
#201
Join Date: May 2010
Location: UK
Programs: BA Gold
Posts: 1,144
I completely agree with you that CW is far from the worst J product out there. To me, by now, it is "third quartile", but by no means the worst. On the details, a few disagreements.
First, note that QF 380s are getting refitted with the excellent J seats they have on the 330s and 789s, so whilst you say has been true historically on that one, it won't be any more. I'm also not aware of DL flying domestic 757s transatlantic nowadays but I may well be wrong on that as they have so many routes and I have obviously not tried all of them. That said, I know some people do not like the DL 767 seats which they find too narrow but I personally prefer all long haul DL seat configurations to CW.
I also do not agree that CW offers privacy. CW window seats offer excellent privacy (and solo centre seats in 2-3-2 cabins), which is something quite different, but I think you actually get a much greater sense of privacy in KL and LH seats (and I was and still am one of the LH sceptics) than in other CW seats, including aisles where you are so close and unprotected from your neighbour.
Like you I do not like the TK configuration that much. However, it is only fair to point out that the TK soft product is heads and shoulders above the BA one (even post-changes which have improved CW significantly) and one of the best around.
In any case, I agree with the general point that to me, those who claim that CW is something like the worst J around , some glorified premium economy, or some similar radical catastrophe are using quite a bit of green dye to colour the neighbour's grass. It is, however, decidedly average. I still like using it personally to the extent that I tend to book my flights in advance and with status can virtually always get a window seat and usually one of the "good" ones, and so much the better if it is BA's oldest planes (ie the slowly disappearing 747s), and I have acknowledged many times that the new CW soft product concept has been a very significant improvement which, whilst not making the BA soft product world leading by any standard, has at least put much of it on par with the good half of the competition, but without a window, I find the experience frankly underwhelming (to the point that when travelling with my partner, we now get two windows rather than sit together).
So whilst by no means the worst, it is also not a case that only the Q suite and a handful of products would be preferable to CW. It is more that CW has slipped from world leading when first launched to comparatively good about 5-10 years ago to below average by today's standards, and much of the competition is improving by big to giant leaps even if they have not yet finished converting all of their fleet in some cases (e.g. AF as you very rightly point out). Time to bring the new CW.
First, note that QF 380s are getting refitted with the excellent J seats they have on the 330s and 789s, so whilst you say has been true historically on that one, it won't be any more. I'm also not aware of DL flying domestic 757s transatlantic nowadays but I may well be wrong on that as they have so many routes and I have obviously not tried all of them. That said, I know some people do not like the DL 767 seats which they find too narrow but I personally prefer all long haul DL seat configurations to CW.
I also do not agree that CW offers privacy. CW window seats offer excellent privacy (and solo centre seats in 2-3-2 cabins), which is something quite different, but I think you actually get a much greater sense of privacy in KL and LH seats (and I was and still am one of the LH sceptics) than in other CW seats, including aisles where you are so close and unprotected from your neighbour.
Like you I do not like the TK configuration that much. However, it is only fair to point out that the TK soft product is heads and shoulders above the BA one (even post-changes which have improved CW significantly) and one of the best around.
In any case, I agree with the general point that to me, those who claim that CW is something like the worst J around , some glorified premium economy, or some similar radical catastrophe are using quite a bit of green dye to colour the neighbour's grass. It is, however, decidedly average. I still like using it personally to the extent that I tend to book my flights in advance and with status can virtually always get a window seat and usually one of the "good" ones, and so much the better if it is BA's oldest planes (ie the slowly disappearing 747s), and I have acknowledged many times that the new CW soft product concept has been a very significant improvement which, whilst not making the BA soft product world leading by any standard, has at least put much of it on par with the good half of the competition, but without a window, I find the experience frankly underwhelming (to the point that when travelling with my partner, we now get two windows rather than sit together).
So whilst by no means the worst, it is also not a case that only the Q suite and a handful of products would be preferable to CW. It is more that CW has slipped from world leading when first launched to comparatively good about 5-10 years ago to below average by today's standards, and much of the competition is improving by big to giant leaps even if they have not yet finished converting all of their fleet in some cases (e.g. AF as you very rightly point out). Time to bring the new CW.
I particularly liked "using quite a bit of green dye to colour the neighbour's grass"
Sep 11, 2018, 2:59 am
#202
Join Date: Dec 2017
Programs: BA Gold, Hilton Silver,
Posts: 151
I completely agree with you that CW is far from the worst J product out there. To me, by now, it is "third quartile", but by no means the worst. On the details, a few disagreements.
First, note that QF 380s are getting refitted with the excellent J seats they have on the 330s and 789s, so whilst you say has been true historically on that one, it won't be any more. I'm also not aware of DL flying domestic 757s transatlantic nowadays but I may well be wrong on that as they have so many routes and I have obviously not tried all of them. That said, I know some people do not like the DL 767 seats which they find too narrow but I personally prefer all long haul DL seat configurations to CW.
I also do not agree that CW offers privacy. CW window seats offer excellent privacy (and solo centre seats in 2-3-2 cabins), which is something quite different, but I think you actually get a much greater sense of privacy in KL and LH seats (and I was and still am one of the LH sceptics) than in other CW seats, including aisles where you are so close and unprotected from your neighbour.
Like you I do not like the TK configuration that much. However, it is only fair to point out that the TK soft product is heads and shoulders above the BA one (even post-changes which have improved CW significantly) and one of the best around.
In any case, I agree with the general point that to me, those who claim that CW is something like the worst J around , some glorified premium economy, or some similar radical catastrophe are using quite a bit of green dye to colour the neighbour's grass. It is, however, decidedly average. I still like using it personally to the extent that I tend to book my flights in advance and with status can virtually always get a window seat and usually one of the "good" ones, and so much the better if it is BA's oldest planes (ie the slowly disappearing 747s), and I have acknowledged many times that the new CW soft product concept has been a very significant improvement which, whilst not making the BA soft product world leading by any standard, has at least put much of it on par with the good half of the competition, but without a window, I find the experience frankly underwhelming (to the point that when travelling with my partner, we now get two windows rather than sit together).
So whilst by no means the worst, it is also not a case that only the Q suite and a handful of products would be preferable to CW. It is more that CW has slipped from world leading when first launched to comparatively good about 5-10 years ago to below average by today's standards, and much of the competition is improving by big to giant leaps even if they have not yet finished converting all of their fleet in some cases (e.g. AF as you very rightly point out). Time to bring the new CW.
First, note that QF 380s are getting refitted with the excellent J seats they have on the 330s and 789s, so whilst you say has been true historically on that one, it won't be any more. I'm also not aware of DL flying domestic 757s transatlantic nowadays but I may well be wrong on that as they have so many routes and I have obviously not tried all of them. That said, I know some people do not like the DL 767 seats which they find too narrow but I personally prefer all long haul DL seat configurations to CW.
I also do not agree that CW offers privacy. CW window seats offer excellent privacy (and solo centre seats in 2-3-2 cabins), which is something quite different, but I think you actually get a much greater sense of privacy in KL and LH seats (and I was and still am one of the LH sceptics) than in other CW seats, including aisles where you are so close and unprotected from your neighbour.
Like you I do not like the TK configuration that much. However, it is only fair to point out that the TK soft product is heads and shoulders above the BA one (even post-changes which have improved CW significantly) and one of the best around.
In any case, I agree with the general point that to me, those who claim that CW is something like the worst J around , some glorified premium economy, or some similar radical catastrophe are using quite a bit of green dye to colour the neighbour's grass. It is, however, decidedly average. I still like using it personally to the extent that I tend to book my flights in advance and with status can virtually always get a window seat and usually one of the "good" ones, and so much the better if it is BA's oldest planes (ie the slowly disappearing 747s), and I have acknowledged many times that the new CW soft product concept has been a very significant improvement which, whilst not making the BA soft product world leading by any standard, has at least put much of it on par with the good half of the competition, but without a window, I find the experience frankly underwhelming (to the point that when travelling with my partner, we now get two windows rather than sit together).
So whilst by no means the worst, it is also not a case that only the Q suite and a handful of products would be preferable to CW. It is more that CW has slipped from world leading when first launched to comparatively good about 5-10 years ago to below average by today's standards, and much of the competition is improving by big to giant leaps even if they have not yet finished converting all of their fleet in some cases (e.g. AF as you very rightly point out). Time to bring the new CW.
Sep 11, 2018, 3:08 am
#203
FlyerTalk Evangelist, Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Somewhere between 0 and 13,000 metres high
Programs: AF/KL Life Plat, BA GGL+GfL, ALL Plat, Hilton Diam, Marriott Gold, blablablah, etc
Posts: 30,547
I believe that they have now started a new one which I have not tried yet, but indeed, the one I have is very good IMHO (similar to the IB J seat). The food is also truly excellent which is paradoxical when you consider that just about 10 years ago, AZ had not only the worst food but - bizarrely enough - probably the worst coffee in the sky. Their back office sucks so IRROPS can be a bit of a challenge (though as ST elite plus, I must say they have usually ended up resolving issues extremely efficiently and generously with me) but the inflight experience is very good indeed. Their lounges have just been completely revamped too.
Sep 11, 2018, 3:30 am
#204
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: coastal Croatia
Programs: BAEC Gold, M&M Senator
Posts: 2,181
BA biz seats are narrow but the lack of a foot coffin is a great thing for those of us with mild claustrophobia. HATE the hard product on Swiss, Austrian, Delta (767 at least), etc. Favorite biz is the AA 777W but also like IB, AZ and BA. Food and service are fine with BA
Sep 11, 2018, 3:30 am
#205
Join Date: Sep 2011
Programs: BA Gold
Posts: 1,076
Sep 11, 2018, 3:37 am
#206
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: London
Programs: Many. Too many. I came here to cut them down. I failed.
Posts: 2,999
Going back to the original points - but what was the climate like in BA when they were groundbreaking? When they put flat beds on every long haul flight and provided consistency across the board? We're really looking late 90's / early 00's I assume?
That was a costly, innovative and successful formula that BA have stuck to and it's reaped dividends. Yet they had a bigger monopoly back then. So i'm wondering what drove that then? I can't remember any other airline taking such a bold step (apart from Emirates with providing seat back TVs for all economy passengers perhaps?). Backward facing seats were a risky strategy - something new, but something that worried people with the 'unknown' - there was a massive trade campaign back then as to why people didn't need to worry about sitting backwards! So why will BA not take the next big step moving forward with their cabins? Has it simply been decided that moving large quantities of business travellers on flat beds is the be all and end all, and there is no future innovation possible, bar perhaps wifi?
That was a costly, innovative and successful formula that BA have stuck to and it's reaped dividends. Yet they had a bigger monopoly back then. So i'm wondering what drove that then? I can't remember any other airline taking such a bold step (apart from Emirates with providing seat back TVs for all economy passengers perhaps?). Backward facing seats were a risky strategy - something new, but something that worried people with the 'unknown' - there was a massive trade campaign back then as to why people didn't need to worry about sitting backwards! So why will BA not take the next big step moving forward with their cabins? Has it simply been decided that moving large quantities of business travellers on flat beds is the be all and end all, and there is no future innovation possible, bar perhaps wifi?
Sep 11, 2018, 3:46 am
#207
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Yorkshire
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 355
I find CW fine too (only flown it about 10 times) but my last flight was UD on the A380 in 56D and the lack of storage really became apparent. On all previous flights I had the side bins so never noticed the storage issues, not a major issue for me by any means but I'll be trying harder (paying) for a window seat next time.......
Sep 11, 2018, 3:49 am
#208
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: BKK
Programs: Mucci Chevalier de la Brosse a Cheveux Dore, SK *GfL, BA Gold, WY G, HH DIA, IC Plat Amb., Hertz PC
Posts: 3,726
Rubbish there are so many J products worse than Club World. I admit that it is not without fault but at least you know exactly what are you going to get seat wise when you book CW with BA.
AF and TK on the other hand... unless you get their 777-300 then their offering is worse than club world many of the AF A330 don't even have lie flats
KLM and LH have better storage but offer less privacy than CW and you still have to climb over someones legs if you are in the window seat.
I believe DL still fly 757 across the pond with domestic first class seats sold as business
QF A380 product is an even less private version of LH's offering
You could even make a case for CW over EK (seat wise only I might add). The A380 seats are far too narrow 17.5 inches all to accommodate a mini bar that keeps your drinks nice and warm and the new 777 offering although very nice looking still has middle seats with your face right next to two strangers when asleep ( perhaps I'm pushing it a bit with EK?)
CW is no Q suites thats for sure but it is far from the worse J product out there
AF and TK on the other hand... unless you get their 777-300 then their offering is worse than club world many of the AF A330 don't even have lie flats
KLM and LH have better storage but offer less privacy than CW and you still have to climb over someones legs if you are in the window seat.
I believe DL still fly 757 across the pond with domestic first class seats sold as business
QF A380 product is an even less private version of LH's offering
You could even make a case for CW over EK (seat wise only I might add). The A380 seats are far too narrow 17.5 inches all to accommodate a mini bar that keeps your drinks nice and warm and the new 777 offering although very nice looking still has middle seats with your face right next to two strangers when asleep ( perhaps I'm pushing it a bit with EK?)
CW is no Q suites thats for sure but it is far from the worse J product out there
(ThrowingBoeing, I completely agree with you that there are many, many other products out there which are worse than CW!)
Sep 11, 2018, 4:18 am
#209
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London
Programs: Mucci. Nothing else matters.
Posts: 38,644
Sep 11, 2018, 4:27 am
#210
Join Date: Sep 2010
Programs: BA Gold
Posts: 367
Apparently I am one of the few people who dislike CW window seats. Feels awfully cramped, makes hailing cabin crew more difficult and involves stepping over someone. Must say that I don't care about the privacy thing many people here seem to feel so strongly about. If fellow travellers get warm and fuzzy by seeing me sleep, more power to them!