gorps1

andrelux

I refer you to my answer #13 . So, not correct.

And when you think about it, how could it be??? 'We sold the stuff, but we don't know for how much'. Seriously????

WorldLux

Post 4 doesn't really give a definitive answer and merely indicates that there have been cases where BA's argument won. That doesn't really say much given that higher courts and the ECJ frequently enough overturn judgements on EU261. If the argument that a cancellation and subsequent rebooking in a lower class of travel amounts to a mere cancellation (rather than cancellation and subsequent downgrade), then the downgrade comp rules would be rather pointless. Considering how passenger friendly the ECJ is, it wouldn't surprise me if the ECJ would order BA to pay if it cancels a flight and rebooks on a substitute flight on the same date and with the same STD and STA.

pauldb

I was responding to the statement that BA would have zero chance in court ... apparently not.

The downgrade rules are also (like everything bar cancellation) deemed to apply only at check-in if the OP can then still claim to have a valid F booking on the flight - another potential problem taking a different line to BA. The downgrade rules are not pointless because they seem to be drawn up for short-notice circumstance when the passenger has little option but to accept.

corporate-wage-slave

I will add some comments to this. BA (and other airlines) traditionally treat this as a cancellation, and offers an involuntary fare refund after travel, calculated by a specialist fares team. Sometimes this is more than EC261 would offer. It will be complicated in the case of BA Holidays case raised above since the airfare is likely to be internally derived. Consequently this isn't primarily covered by EC261, but (assuming it was a UK departure point) the Package Travel, Package Holidays and Package Tours Regulations 1992. This does provide for compensation for significant alterations to essential terms, and this would include downgrading the flight. It doesn't work on the basis of set compensation amounts, but you do have MCOL access if BA doesn't provide proper compensation. Since gorps1 recalls paying £500 more per person for First travel, that is probably a good start point. If a Statement of Truth was made to assert this, then it would be over the BA to explain what was incorrect or not applicable.

For non package tour issues, to summarise a long debate about equipment changes, there are court cases where it has been deemed to be a downgrade, and therefore the usual reimbursement formula used; and I also know of some cases where the airline was able to successfully argue it was a cancellation and therefore the respective remedies apply. In one of these cases I'm sure the airline won the case due to the incompetence of the claimant's case who asked for a silly amount of compensation. On balance I would say the courts favour this as being a downgrade, but in individual cases there have been exceptions. Small Courts are entitled to look at each case on its merits.

LimitingFactor

I'd be interested in what you think my most favourable option is? It's not the end of the world to me if I have to wait until after Feb'19 to get an appropriate refund amount, my biggest concern is that if I leave it and then in (say) March next year they say no refund is due or something silly like that I'm so far past when the cancellation/downgrade happened there is not much data to fight it. Even now I actually have no idea what an appropriate CW fare would have been at the time I booked as both the CW and the F fare I purchased expired at the end of March'18 and I'm not aware of a tool to find historic fares. (Mine was just a normal cash booking BTW not BA Holidays, it was another poster who had a similar issue on a BA holidays booking)

I did speak to someone later yesterday at YouFirst who thought it was odd that I"d have to wait and was speaking to the fares team, but obviously didn't get an answer yesterday as I haven't heard back.

corporate-wage-slave

There is a case for leaving it, you don't lose out in terms of timelines, there is a 6 year claim period here. Moreover, if there was an equipment change in one direction, there could equally be an equipment change in the other direction. However at a certain point they are not going to reinstate First sales, that won't get switched on 3 weeks before departure. I can probably find out the fare differences by spending 20 minutes on ExpertFlyer and working through the relevant fare basis codes, but that's because I know (roughly) how this works, got full access to my PNRs and I keep a record of my fare basis, which can be found via the usual checkmytrip link.
https://classic.checkmytrip.com/plne...&SITE=XCMTXXNS

The alternative approach is to do a rough and ready calculation under the 75% of the affected mileage calculation, after deduction of taxes and airport fees, and use that as a benchmark, if BA pays less than this then that's the time to push for a higher amount. There is a more precise example / calculation shown in the EC261 thread.

LimitingFactor

Thank you very much! I'm only a very recent subscriber and missed the 'advanced options' box on the Fare Information tab. I've now found both my exact fare, and more importantly the cheapest CW fare for sale on that day which will give me what I need to work out the exact fare difference to expect. I'll save all this out to a file in a bit and then be happy to wait to see what happens (Unless YouFirst get back to me in the meantime)

rockflyertalk

I wonder if this has anything to do with the densification programme at LGW? F is being removed from some aircraft is it not? I forget the specific refit plans from the IAG presentation.

LimitingFactor

Just as a follow up, YouFirst got back to me today. They had escalated it to someone senior in the fares team who calculated an appropriate refund amount, which nicely agreed with the approximate figure I'd come up with working out the difference between the A fare on sale at the time I booked with the cheapest I fare on sale at the same time, and said they would refund right away. However, I did ask if the equipment changed back could I restore the original A fare if I took the refund and he thought that that wouldn't be something they could guarantee.

I don't know if this was correct information or not, but in the end I asked for the refund amount to be recorded against the booking so I could claim it at any time, but not to action it as I'd wait a few months to see if 1st was restored as I'd rather fly in F than have the money. (Had it been the return night flight I'd probably have taken the money though)

EsherFlyer

Not sure if I'm missing the point but I think what at they're trying to say is they don't have a snapshot of what fares were available for other cabins when OP bought ticket. That doesn't surprise me, although it would only have a few bytes to add that at time of sale.

BA could quite easily have a look at selling history on the aircraft to see who bought what fare in J before and after OP's transaction. That would give a guide of how to price for OP.

LimitingFactor

The flight is now flown. F was not reinstated and in the end I didn't push for reticketing and refund before travel (although I was offered an amount which I refused as it was less than the difference between the identical A and I fare basis on that date). So I traveled on a F ticket which was reissued on the day in CW. I was allowed use of the F lounge.

I've received a refund which rough calculations indicate that it is indeed 75% of 50% of the fare excluding taxes and charges (which nicely was greater than the fare difference). I was also offered an additional e-voucher as an apology.

Perfectly happy with the result, and the customer service to get this happening had it all tied up in a week or so.

Happy with BA here,

LF