Would you turn down a really good job if the travel policy was all Y?
Jun 27, 2018, 8:30 am
#241
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: near to SFO and LHR
Programs: BA Gold, B6 Mosiac, VS, AA, DL (and a legacy UA 2MM)
Posts: 2,274
I have heard of this option often with US-based companies, and depending on the amount offered vs distance of course, consider it the best of both worlds! Ie: offer a choice and let the employee make their own cost-benefit choice. A youngish person might likely choose the money and perhaps an older one would choose the luxury.
Jun 27, 2018, 9:39 am
#243
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 344
Actually - in that circumstance - I would regard it as a win. I have a young family and when I get back to them - I want to be fresh and rested so I can spend time with them, not trying to catch back up on my sleep or being cranky because I'm tired.
So if I'm going to be asked to go 11 hours in Y, straight into an all day meeting, early flight back the following day etc - I expect some rest time and I expect it on the company's time, not on mine.
When I'm travelling regularly, my family time is even more important to me than normal, so if you want me to give up every other Sunday and want me to travel all over the world in cramped conditions, there'd better be some other form of payoff (in terms of rest time, in terms of hugely inflated pay or in terms of conditions of travel). Otherwise someone else can do that job.
When I started travelling for work (20 odd years ago) - the company had a Y only policy and I was just excited to be travelling, but I did one or two long hauls a year - so Y was fine. Once I moved to a job where travel was regular and it was to similar places all the time back and forth - I became much more jaded. I spent one summer in what I described as my 'permanent icelandic timezone' as I went back and forth over the atlantic every weekend (one week London, one week East Coast). Had my company not been flexible about my travel, when and how, I would have said no and that would have cost the company contracts and money. They could have got someone else in to do the job - but they'd have lost 3 months of PS revenue while they did so.
A company that looks at you and says "you will be in <x> on <y>" without asking "Can you?" before that and failing to understand when it asks you to do something physically demanding (and it is) like that it is the wrong company to work for IMHO.
And - frankly - I treat my employees in the way I'd expect to be treated. I had a team member who missed a flight due to a mistake by our TA (wrong name on ticket, no one spotted it) and the client he was due to spend time with were (righly) irked and demanded he be present the following day. The only flight that would make it was a very late flight out of Luton (when he'd already been up at 5am to make the first error flight) and he agreed to keep the client happy. I made it clear to him that it was optional, that I would smooth it with the client if he didn't feel he was able to, and that once he was back on the Thursday, I didn't expect to see him until the Monday.
So if I'm going to be asked to go 11 hours in Y, straight into an all day meeting, early flight back the following day etc - I expect some rest time and I expect it on the company's time, not on mine.
When I'm travelling regularly, my family time is even more important to me than normal, so if you want me to give up every other Sunday and want me to travel all over the world in cramped conditions, there'd better be some other form of payoff (in terms of rest time, in terms of hugely inflated pay or in terms of conditions of travel). Otherwise someone else can do that job.
When I started travelling for work (20 odd years ago) - the company had a Y only policy and I was just excited to be travelling, but I did one or two long hauls a year - so Y was fine. Once I moved to a job where travel was regular and it was to similar places all the time back and forth - I became much more jaded. I spent one summer in what I described as my 'permanent icelandic timezone' as I went back and forth over the atlantic every weekend (one week London, one week East Coast). Had my company not been flexible about my travel, when and how, I would have said no and that would have cost the company contracts and money. They could have got someone else in to do the job - but they'd have lost 3 months of PS revenue while they did so.
A company that looks at you and says "you will be in <x> on <y>" without asking "Can you?" before that and failing to understand when it asks you to do something physically demanding (and it is) like that it is the wrong company to work for IMHO.
And - frankly - I treat my employees in the way I'd expect to be treated. I had a team member who missed a flight due to a mistake by our TA (wrong name on ticket, no one spotted it) and the client he was due to spend time with were (righly) irked and demanded he be present the following day. The only flight that would make it was a very late flight out of Luton (when he'd already been up at 5am to make the first error flight) and he agreed to keep the client happy. I made it clear to him that it was optional, that I would smooth it with the client if he didn't feel he was able to, and that once he was back on the Thursday, I didn't expect to see him until the Monday.
For me personally, taking an extra day away to be fresher when with family is a bad trade.
You don't get those days back, especially with a young family.
Jun 27, 2018, 10:53 am
#244
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: GVA
Programs: BA Silver (OW Sapphire), A3 Gold (*G), Bonvoy LTTE, HHonors Diamond, LeClubAccor Silver, UA Silver
Posts: 1,778
What did OP do?
So... this 3 month old thread was suddenly revived.
Anyone else curious as to what the OP ended up doing?
Anyone else curious as to what the OP ended up doing?
Jun 27, 2018, 2:34 pm
#245
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: London
Programs: BA, VS, HH, IHG, MB, MR
Posts: 26,871
Jun 27, 2018, 3:20 pm
#246
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: UK
Programs: BA Gold
Posts: 228
I went for it, just over 2 month into the job and I’m loving it. The first couple of months have involved a lot more travel than normal but I knew that would be the case. So far I’ve done 5 long hauls, 4 European trips and a couple of US domestics, all booked in economy. At least the long hauls have been booked into B class so they earn reasonable tier points and Avios.
I’ve discovered that long haul Y isn’t too bad on a day flight if you get an exit seat and have the right expectations, I’ve been fairly lucky getting the middle seat empty which helps too. The main point is the people around you are able to affect your comfort a lot more than in J. For example the lady in the seat behind me on the way to Miami who decided it was a good idea to rest her feet on the back of my seat literally inches from my head (I did have polite word with her). Or the gentleman with an upset stomach sitting next to me for 12 hours on the way back from Cape Town.
I’ve tried to AUP every overnight flight to J but only been successful on 2 out of the 6 sectors, for the others they said that J was already full. Interestingly I haven’t been offered any upgrades online or in the App for the long haul sectors but I’ve been offered upgrades at online check in for most of the short haul flights, not sure why that is?
I’ve spoken to the corporate travel agents to see if they can book me into J and I pay the difference but apparently, they don’t have the systems in place to do that, especially when plans change and tickets need to be refunded.
I should be settling into a more reasonable travel pattern after the summer of 1 long haul and 1 short haul a month.
Jun 29, 2018, 2:02 am
#247
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: West Sussex
Programs: BA Gold
Posts: 897
As someone who does 20-30 trips a year to Stockholm, I can say that most Swedish companies I know have a strict Y only policy for Europe (from CEO down) but J is allowed on LH trips (although W is generally seen as more desirable from both a company and colleague perspective, especially for day flights). It certainly would not be appropriate to talk about booking J or boasting about an upgrade even if you had just flown in the front cabin.
The thing that really blows the mind of Scandinavians is a UK company car policy: "You mean you actually get a better company car because you have received a promotion?"
The thing that really blows the mind of Scandinavians is a UK company car policy: "You mean you actually get a better company car because you have received a promotion?"
Jul 6, 2018, 6:06 pm
#249
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: London
Programs: BA Gold (OneWorld Emerald)
Posts: 218
I'm a senior level HR professional and I had this conversation with a recruiter about a potential role quite recently. From a purely objective perspective, if a company is beyond the small start up stage and is not a non-profit, I'd expect to travel J on any long haul flight (probably over 5 hours and certainly transatlantic). A huge part of this is about the value a company has for their employees, regardless of level in the business - everyone is working and spending time from home - it's not a perk, it's being able to travel in a way which is comfortable and allows you to arrive productive. Whenever I have been offered a role, I've asked to see an organisation's travel policy as it says a huge amount about the type of company they are to work for - and I have also been in a position to influence such policies as well.
From a more personal perspective, I firstly don't travel below J personally, but I've also been seriously ill in the past, so putting myself through long haul Y flights more than once or twice a year is not something I would want to do. My first job involved a huge amount of travelling, and although it was just short haul and I didn't care about being in Y for that, it always seemed wrong that more senior people got to be in J whilst I was in Y - travel was not a benefit, but a necessity and being treated like that was incredibly demoralising.
To look at the original post, I think being told that I have to book Y but get a 2k a month allowance which I can then use to upgrade to J if I choose is a pretty decent deal - as long as I can book upgradable tickets. Every person is different and some may not be bothered about Y or J, but some may - so allowing a level of flexibility and choice seems to be a good way forward. However, I would certainly turn a job down if it was Y only, no opportunity to upgrade, no exceptions, unless it was going to be a once or twice a year trip. Your job takes up a lot of your time, and if you are travelling a lot you need to think about the impact that will have on you, just as you take the salary, commute, working environment and benefits into account before making a decision.
From a more personal perspective, I firstly don't travel below J personally, but I've also been seriously ill in the past, so putting myself through long haul Y flights more than once or twice a year is not something I would want to do. My first job involved a huge amount of travelling, and although it was just short haul and I didn't care about being in Y for that, it always seemed wrong that more senior people got to be in J whilst I was in Y - travel was not a benefit, but a necessity and being treated like that was incredibly demoralising.
To look at the original post, I think being told that I have to book Y but get a 2k a month allowance which I can then use to upgrade to J if I choose is a pretty decent deal - as long as I can book upgradable tickets. Every person is different and some may not be bothered about Y or J, but some may - so allowing a level of flexibility and choice seems to be a good way forward. However, I would certainly turn a job down if it was Y only, no opportunity to upgrade, no exceptions, unless it was going to be a once or twice a year trip. Your job takes up a lot of your time, and if you are travelling a lot you need to think about the impact that will have on you, just as you take the salary, commute, working environment and benefits into account before making a decision.
Jul 7, 2018, 10:08 pm
#250
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 106
This thread has been an insightful read! Lots of interesting perspectives here.
OP, glad you are happy with your choice.
I was unaware that this many US/Nordic companies mandate Y travel for long haul.
Does anyone know if this is the norm for Swiss banks as well?
OP, glad you are happy with your choice.
I was unaware that this many US/Nordic companies mandate Y travel for long haul.
Does anyone know if this is the norm for Swiss banks as well?
Jul 8, 2018, 2:20 am
#251
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 344
This thread has been an insightful read! Lots of interesting perspectives here.
OP, glad you are happy with your choice.
I was unaware that this many US/Nordic companies mandate Y travel for long haul.
Does anyone know if this is the norm for Swiss banks as well?
OP, glad you are happy with your choice.
I was unaware that this many US/Nordic companies mandate Y travel for long haul.
Does anyone know if this is the norm for Swiss banks as well?
When my company stopped J travel (except for VPs) they cited a bunch of other companies in our sector who had done the same.
So the way I look at it is that if I want to travel J I need to move sector or aggressively negotiate when getting hired.
The sectors that spring to mind for a more generous approach to travel policy would be banking, Fintech, Pharma, Legal, online gambling.
Personally I need to evaluate if I want to move from doing something I consider meaningful to working in one of the above sectors (I am sure there are more).
Jul 8, 2018, 1:39 pm
#252
Join Date: May 2017
Programs: BA Silver
Posts: 120
I work for a US company and until recently, the policy was any flight over 6 hours was J - effectively capturing all business trips as they're based in Connecticut so we fly to JFK.
Recently, this has been changed so day flights are W and only overnight is J. This has captured everyone so even people who report directly to the board are doing it.
I think things are going this way.
Recently, this has been changed so day flights are W and only overnight is J. This has captured everyone so even people who report directly to the board are doing it.
I think things are going this way.
Jul 9, 2018, 1:47 am
#254
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: OSL
Posts: 2,644
This thread has been an insightful read! Lots of interesting perspectives here.
OP, glad you are happy with your choice.
I was unaware that this many US/Nordic companies mandate Y travel for long haul.
Does anyone know if this is the norm for Swiss banks as well?
OP, glad you are happy with your choice.
I was unaware that this many US/Nordic companies mandate Y travel for long haul.
Does anyone know if this is the norm for Swiss banks as well?
Last edited by dodgeflyer; Jul 9, 2018 at 2:40 am
Jul 9, 2018, 2:01 am
#255
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: London
Programs: BA, VS, HH, IHG, MB, MR
Posts: 26,871
Even when I was a £19k graduate trainee banker 25 years ago we were paying the extra £50 out of own pockets to cover the difference between fully flex BA Y and J on short haul.
At most, they will have been given a salary or allowance increase which allows them to nominally pay the extra from their own pockets but not actually be wose off. My wife was once offered a variant on this as part of a retention deal (my wife is one of the few bankers in London with a contract which forbids the bank for firing her except for gross misconduct, it is laughable what some companies will sign if pushed.)