May 22, 2018, 3:28 am
Last edit by: serfty
Link to Text of the regulations in PDF format
How about a Wiki to post EU comp given/denied as well as results for any CEDR or other process. Especially concerning the 787 issue as there are going to be many claims given all the cancellations.
Mine was April 22 BA280 LAX-LHR cancellation 4 days before flight and rebooked on later flight and arrived 4.5 hrs later than origianlly scheduled. BA's response was to deny for "operational" requirements though the 787 "tentatively assigned" G-ZBJG was used instead for a LHR-YUL flight that same day. CEDR filed and awaiting their initial review. Sept 3rd UPDATE: CEDR decision in Article 7 comp awarded in the amount of 600 euro as even though extraordinary circumstances are present in an engine defect as this, BA didn't show that they took reasonable steps to avoid the cancellation as they have known since Oct 2017 of this issue.
How about a Wiki to post EU comp given/denied as well as results for any CEDR or other process. Especially concerning the 787 issue as there are going to be many claims given all the cancellations.
Mine was April 22 BA280 LAX-LHR cancellation 4 days before flight and rebooked on later flight and arrived 4.5 hrs later than origianlly scheduled. BA's response was to deny for "operational" requirements though the 787 "tentatively assigned" G-ZBJG was used instead for a LHR-YUL flight that same day. CEDR filed and awaiting their initial review. Sept 3rd UPDATE: CEDR decision in Article 7 comp awarded in the amount of 600 euro as even though extraordinary circumstances are present in an engine defect as this, BA didn't show that they took reasonable steps to avoid the cancellation as they have known since Oct 2017 of this issue.
The 2018 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004
Jul 23, 2018, 6:31 am
#931
Moderator: British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Jan 2009
Programs: Battleaxe Alliance
Posts: 22,127
Does anyone know of any outcome of a court case where the carrier denied 'care' based on having offered a refund and took the carrier to court?
Specifically, the carrier (admittedly not BA, however I think there may well be people on this thread who have researched the case law and came across this situation) is insisting that the arrangement for accommodation, transport and meals had to be pre-approved by the carrier in advance for it to be reimbursed, despite the fact they told me to go to a travel agent to book the accommodation myself after a cancellation, and never mentioned pre-approval for anything*, and also basing its denial on having offered (actually, they insisted, they did not offer it - they said they must refund it**) a refund for the flight.
* In fact they insisted at the time to someone else (I overheard them) that they would only pay for one night no matter how long the wait for the next flight was, which is clearly against the EC261
**Presumably because they knew there was no availability for days and their expenses for 'care' would be rather substantial when it stretches a number a days.
I have to say that in all cases of care and compensation claim I have made against BA, I have never had a denial of a reasonable expenses or compensation andwere paid very promptly, and in other instances with others carriers they were very efficient and had transport and hotel vouchers waiting for me even before I got there and/or paid for things without a quibble, so this denial has been quite an interesting experience.
Specifically, the carrier (admittedly not BA, however I think there may well be people on this thread who have researched the case law and came across this situation) is insisting that the arrangement for accommodation, transport and meals had to be pre-approved by the carrier in advance for it to be reimbursed, despite the fact they told me to go to a travel agent to book the accommodation myself after a cancellation, and never mentioned pre-approval for anything*, and also basing its denial on having offered (actually, they insisted, they did not offer it - they said they must refund it**) a refund for the flight.
* In fact they insisted at the time to someone else (I overheard them) that they would only pay for one night no matter how long the wait for the next flight was, which is clearly against the EC261
**Presumably because they knew there was no availability for days and their expenses for 'care' would be rather substantial when it stretches a number a days.
I have to say that in all cases of care and compensation claim I have made against BA, I have never had a denial of a reasonable expenses or compensation andwere paid very promptly, and in other instances with others carriers they were very efficient and had transport and hotel vouchers waiting for me even before I got there and/or paid for things without a quibble, so this denial has been quite an interesting experience.
Last edited by LTN Phobia; Jul 23, 2018 at 7:48 am
Jul 23, 2018, 7:15 am
#932
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6,349
As it isn't a BA issue, surely the answer is to post in the forum of the relevant airline where similar experiences on the same carrier might come to light?
Jul 23, 2018, 7:26 am
#933
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: UK
Programs: Mucci, BA, AF
Posts: 10,130
No, Israel has its own compensation regulation but flying from the EU to Israel doesn't take away your EU rights.
So here is the dispatch informatiion:
So here is the dispatch informatiion:
DOBA167/20JUL
* OPERATIONAL FLIGHT INFO * BA 167 -2 FR 20JUL18
CITY INFO HOUR (LOCAL)
LHR ESTIMATED TIME OF DEPARTURE 2250
LEFT THE GATE 2250
TOOK OFF 2251
ESTIMATED TIME OF ARRIVAL 0556 TLV
TLV AIRCRAFT LANDED 0548
ARRIVED 0556
*1A PLANNED FLIGHT INFO* BA 167 -2 FR 20JUL18
APT ARR DY DEP DY CLASS/MEAL EQP GRND EFT TTL
LHR 1645 FR JCDRIWETYBH/M 777 4:50
KMLVSNQOGX/M
TLV 2335 FR 4:50
COMMENTS-
1.LHR TLV - MEMBER OF ONEWORLD
2.LHR TLV - DEPARTS TERMINAL 5
3.LHR TLV - ARRIVES TERMINAL 3
4.LHR TLV - 9/ NON-SMOKING
5.LHR TLV - ET/ ELECTRONIC TKT CANDIDATE
6.LHR TLV - CO2/PAX* 234.53 KG ECO, 469.06 KG PRE
(*):SOURCE:ICAO CARBON EMISSIONS CALCULATOR
CONFIGURATION-
777 J 48 W 24 M 203
>
The scheduled time of arrival was 23:35, actual time of arrival (chocs on) was 05:56, so well over 6 hours late. If this was on separate tickets, then it's 400€ fairly certainly. If you were on a single ticket then you are looking at 600€.* OPERATIONAL FLIGHT INFO * BA 167 -2 FR 20JUL18
CITY INFO HOUR (LOCAL)
LHR ESTIMATED TIME OF DEPARTURE 2250
LEFT THE GATE 2250
TOOK OFF 2251
ESTIMATED TIME OF ARRIVAL 0556 TLV
TLV AIRCRAFT LANDED 0548
ARRIVED 0556
*1A PLANNED FLIGHT INFO* BA 167 -2 FR 20JUL18
APT ARR DY DEP DY CLASS/MEAL EQP GRND EFT TTL
LHR 1645 FR JCDRIWETYBH/M 777 4:50
KMLVSNQOGX/M
TLV 2335 FR 4:50
COMMENTS-
1.LHR TLV - MEMBER OF ONEWORLD
2.LHR TLV - DEPARTS TERMINAL 5
3.LHR TLV - ARRIVES TERMINAL 3
4.LHR TLV - 9/ NON-SMOKING
5.LHR TLV - ET/ ELECTRONIC TKT CANDIDATE
6.LHR TLV - CO2/PAX* 234.53 KG ECO, 469.06 KG PRE
(*):SOURCE:ICAO CARBON EMISSIONS CALCULATOR
CONFIGURATION-
777 J 48 W 24 M 203
>
I wonder how BA got the aircraft away from the gate and in the air in one minute!
Jul 23, 2018, 7:30 am
#934
Moderator: British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Jan 2009
Programs: Battleaxe Alliance
Posts: 22,127
Well different airlines have different approaches, for example BA will refund but for Easyjet I have always dealt through the app.
As it isn't a BA issue, surely the answer is to post in the forum of the relevant airline where similar experiences on the same carrier might come to light?
As it isn't a BA issue, surely the answer is to post in the forum of the relevant airline where similar experiences on the same carrier might come to light?
Jul 23, 2018, 7:33 am
#935
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
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Posts: 63,850
I've check the official BA distance and it is 2215 miles, which is 3564 km, the cut off being 3500 km. I recall a case where it deemed to be under 3500 kms but I don't recall the context. But yes, 2215 miles would be fine for 600€ anyway.
Jul 23, 2018, 7:40 am
#936
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
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I'm only looking for any court judgements that people who participate in this thread may have come across regarding liability and reimbursement of expenses, not how a particular carrier normally deals with it (how the particular carrier normally deals with it is irrelevant since I am going into the legal battle mode after denial of liability).
This is assuming less than 2 weeks notice was given.
There is one area which can catch people out, however. If you cancel the flight and seek a refund rather than persist with rebooking, you can't claim Article 7 (compensation) unless you have been offered a flight outside the various windows. Furthermore you need to have a rerouted service offered for the next day to be justified to have hotel accommodation (Article 5.1.b) So I would hold back on cancellation refunds if the situaiton is fluid.
Last edited by corporate-wage-slave; Jul 23, 2018 at 7:48 am
Jul 23, 2018, 7:47 am
#937
Moderator: British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Jan 2009
Programs: Battleaxe Alliance
Posts: 22,127
I can't recall a case where the airline has denied Right to Care on this basis, namely lack of pre-authorisation. The nearest I can think of was someone claiming a hotel cost that they should have had (since the airline didn't offer it) but didn't actually spend - they stayed overnight in the airport - as part of a wider claim, and the district judge ruled that specific component out. Which is understandable and very different to your question. Going beyond your question as posed, a bit, the Regulation (article 8) says that "passengers shall be offered free of charge" accommodation, meals, transport, communication services. If they didn't offer this then the airline is in breach of the Regulations, regardless of travel agents etc. If it's not offered then the passenger has no choice but to seek their own reasonable remedy. I would have no hesitation sending it to MCOL (prefereably) or CEDR.
Exactly the kind of info I was looking for, and interesting because no-one went so far as to require a well-publicised court judgement over the denial of liability for 'care' on such a tenuous basis, although it would have been more useful if the carrier had gone to court over it and lost at one of the higher courts.
At least I can verify that I was there (and did not skimp by staying at the airport) and I have the receipts, booking confirmation and everything - and the hotel would happily testify that I was there too.
Staying at the airport would have been pretty crazy.
Last edited by LTN Phobia; Jul 23, 2018 at 7:58 am
Jul 23, 2018, 9:20 am
#938
Join Date: May 1999
Location: London, England
Posts: 97
Was due to depart MCO on BA2038 Sunday 22nd Jul @ 19:50.
Apparently due to weather the inbound flight had been diverted to Tampa. At first told flight should be going out at 22:20 ish, then finally after 9pm local the gate staff announced that due to the inbound flight crew going out of hours, they were no longer able to operate the flight and were having to cancel it.
A supervisor at the ticketing desks where pax were queueing to rebook, confirmed that the cause was lack of crew, although the boilerplate letter handed out gave the reason as "weather", which seems disingenuous to me. We've since agreed with BA on a replacement flight which will see us getting back to the UK 2 days after our original return date.
The diversion of an aircraft is one thing, but not having a relief crew available is surely something that should be within their control?
Any guidance on whether this is worth filing for? I made sure to grab the contact details for a fellow pax to corroborate the announcement regarding lack of crew.
Apparently due to weather the inbound flight had been diverted to Tampa. At first told flight should be going out at 22:20 ish, then finally after 9pm local the gate staff announced that due to the inbound flight crew going out of hours, they were no longer able to operate the flight and were having to cancel it.
A supervisor at the ticketing desks where pax were queueing to rebook, confirmed that the cause was lack of crew, although the boilerplate letter handed out gave the reason as "weather", which seems disingenuous to me. We've since agreed with BA on a replacement flight which will see us getting back to the UK 2 days after our original return date.
The diversion of an aircraft is one thing, but not having a relief crew available is surely something that should be within their control?
Any guidance on whether this is worth filing for? I made sure to grab the contact details for a fellow pax to corroborate the announcement regarding lack of crew.
Jul 23, 2018, 9:27 am
#939
Join Date: Feb 2018
Programs: BAEC Gold, Hilton Diamond, Bonvoy Silver
Posts: 175
Given that the root cause was weather, and this is an outstation, I would expect that BA could reasonably deny Article 7 compensation. (They would still owe duty of care, of course.) If I've missed the mark, CWS will be along shortly to correct me.
Jul 23, 2018, 9:28 am
#940
Ambassador, British Airways; FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2012
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Was due to depart MCO on BA2038 Sunday 22nd Jul @ 19:50.
Apparently due to weather the inbound flight had been diverted to Tampa. At first told flight should be going out at 22:20 ish, then finally after 9pm local the gate staff announced that due to the inbound flight crew going out of hours, they were no longer able to operate the flight and were having to cancel it.
A supervisor at the ticketing desks where pax were queueing to rebook, confirmed that the cause was lack of crew, although the boilerplate letter handed out gave the reason as "weather", which seems disingenuous to me. We've since agreed with BA on a replacement flight which will see us getting back to the UK 2 days after our original return date.
The diversion of an aircraft is one thing, but not having a relief crew available is surely something that should be within their control?
Any guidance on whether this is worth filing for? I made sure to grab the contact details for a fellow pax to corroborate the announcement regarding lack of crew.
Apparently due to weather the inbound flight had been diverted to Tampa. At first told flight should be going out at 22:20 ish, then finally after 9pm local the gate staff announced that due to the inbound flight crew going out of hours, they were no longer able to operate the flight and were having to cancel it.
A supervisor at the ticketing desks where pax were queueing to rebook, confirmed that the cause was lack of crew, although the boilerplate letter handed out gave the reason as "weather", which seems disingenuous to me. We've since agreed with BA on a replacement flight which will see us getting back to the UK 2 days after our original return date.
The diversion of an aircraft is one thing, but not having a relief crew available is surely something that should be within their control?
Any guidance on whether this is worth filing for? I made sure to grab the contact details for a fellow pax to corroborate the announcement regarding lack of crew.
Results from https://www.ExpertFlyer.com
Code:
Flight Status Search:
Departing on 22/07/18
Flying BA flight 2038
Flight Status Depart Location Depart Date Reliability Arrive Location Arrive Date
MCO Scheduled: 22/07/18 7:50 PM LGW Scheduled: 23/07/18 9:15 AM
BA 2038 Canceled Term: B Estimated: 22/07/18 7:50 PM 53% / 33m Term: S Estimated: 23/07/18 9:04 AM
Gate: 80 Actual: Gate: Actual:
Comments:
"DOBA2038/22JUL
* OPERATIONAL FLIGHT INFO * BA2038 -1 SU 22JUL18
CITY INFO HOUR (LOCAL)
MCO NEXT INFO WILL BE AT 2221
ESTIMATED TIME OF DEPARTURE 1950
FLIGHT CANCELLED 2005
WEAN
ESTIMATED TIME OF ARRIVAL 0904 LGW
*1A PLANNED FLIGHT INFO* BA2038 -1 SU 22JUL18 ASM
APT ARR DY DEP DY CLASS/MEAL EQP GRND EFT TTL
MCO 1950 SU JCDRIWETYBH/M 777 8:25
KMLVSNQOGX/M
LGW 0915 MO 8:25
COMMENTS-
1.MCO LGW - MEMBER OF ONEWORLD
2.MCO LGW - ARRIVES TERMINAL S
3.MCO LGW - 9/ NON-SMOKING
4.MCO LGW - SECURED FLIGHT
5.MCO LGW - ET/ ELECTRONIC TKT CANDIDATE
6.MCO LGW - CO2/PAX* 435.25 KG ECO, 870.50 KG PRE
(*):SOURCE:ICAO CARBON EMISSIONS CALCULATOR
CONFIGURATION-
777 J 40 W 24 M 216
>"
Jul 23, 2018, 9:29 am
#941
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,624
I don't see how BA could claim a 2 day delay as all being due to weather.
Jul 23, 2018, 9:30 am
#942
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Brighton. UK
Programs: BA Gold / VS /IHG Diamond & Ambassador
Posts: 14,203
The diversion of an aircraft is one thing, but not having a relief crew available is surely something that should be within their control?
Any guidance on whether this is worth filing for? I made sure to grab the contact details for a fellow pax to corroborate the announcement regarding lack of crew.
Jul 23, 2018, 9:31 am
#943
Ambassador, British Airways; FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Leeds, UK
Programs: BA GGL/CCR, GfL, HH Diamond
Posts: 42,990
Also I wonder why no options to reroute you from MCO to another airport in the US and then on to a TATL weren't offered? Was that discussed?
Jul 23, 2018, 9:33 am
#944
FlyerTalk Evangelist
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Jul 23, 2018, 9:43 am
#945
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK
Programs: BAEC Silver
Posts: 756
You would have more of a case if this was a flight leaving LHR/LGW (and possibly somewhere like JFK that has multiple flights a day) where you could reasonably expect BA to have staff on-call or shift CC from one flight to another as long as they are type trained but it would be unreasonable to expect any airline to have a set of relief crew available at every airport.