May 22, 2018, 3:28 am
Last edit by: serfty
Link to Text of the regulations in PDF format
How about a Wiki to post EU comp given/denied as well as results for any CEDR or other process. Especially concerning the 787 issue as there are going to be many claims given all the cancellations.
Mine was April 22 BA280 LAX-LHR cancellation 4 days before flight and rebooked on later flight and arrived 4.5 hrs later than origianlly scheduled. BA's response was to deny for "operational" requirements though the 787 "tentatively assigned" G-ZBJG was used instead for a LHR-YUL flight that same day. CEDR filed and awaiting their initial review. Sept 3rd UPDATE: CEDR decision in Article 7 comp awarded in the amount of 600 euro as even though extraordinary circumstances are present in an engine defect as this, BA didn't show that they took reasonable steps to avoid the cancellation as they have known since Oct 2017 of this issue.
How about a Wiki to post EU comp given/denied as well as results for any CEDR or other process. Especially concerning the 787 issue as there are going to be many claims given all the cancellations.
Mine was April 22 BA280 LAX-LHR cancellation 4 days before flight and rebooked on later flight and arrived 4.5 hrs later than origianlly scheduled. BA's response was to deny for "operational" requirements though the 787 "tentatively assigned" G-ZBJG was used instead for a LHR-YUL flight that same day. CEDR filed and awaiting their initial review. Sept 3rd UPDATE: CEDR decision in Article 7 comp awarded in the amount of 600 euro as even though extraordinary circumstances are present in an engine defect as this, BA didn't show that they took reasonable steps to avoid the cancellation as they have known since Oct 2017 of this issue.
The 2018 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004
Mar 10, 2018, 10:00 am
#272
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 20
Mixed Fleet strike cancellation
I have now received a Directions Questionnaire from the court office. Can I submit a 'Reply to Defence' together with the DQ form?
Spoiler
Mar 10, 2018, 10:13 am
#273
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
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Posts: 63,829
1) The strikes were not third party but internal to BA and there was manifestly more that could be done to avoid them since an internal settlement was eventually reached
2) BA has multiple crews, not all of MF were on strike, and BA operated 98% (precise figure needs checking). So cancelling this flight was expedient but a choice the company made.
3) BA has not specifically identified what measures it took to meet this condition "except when the cancellation occurs in extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken." In other words, what reasonable measures did it take for this identified flight and how, after these measures were taken why did it fail?
4) BA sought CAA's permission to operate Qatar flights at least in part to mitigate its exposure to EC261 and other claims. So what happened here?
5) Did BA make any attempt to rebook the passenger on other airlines to meet the time constraints of EC261, given there are dozens of European flights to Moscow?
6) Strikes in the aviation industry aren't extraordinary in any literal sense, they happen all the time, and BA's industrial relations record speaks for itself. Clearly if (e.g.) French ATC went on strike that makes it very difficult for BA to do anything about it, but this was not a wildcat strike, it was carefully planned by both the crew and the airline, mitigations were put in place, again demonstrating a lack of extraordinary.
I'm not a lawyer.
Mar 10, 2018, 10:56 am
#274
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: London
Programs: BA GGL (for now) and Lifetime Gold, Marriott fan thanks to Bonvoy Moments
Posts: 5,115
That CAA application by BA would, literally, be exhibit A if it was me!
Would suggest that any other posters lodging evidence etc. in similar cases upload to a public google drive folder for the benefit of others - e.g. like below
https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/m...13&direction=a
Would suggest that any other posters lodging evidence etc. in similar cases upload to a public google drive folder for the benefit of others - e.g. like below
https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/m...13&direction=a
Mar 10, 2018, 12:36 pm
#275
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Northern England
Posts: 1,534
I posted my CEDR information, inc BAs defence in the 2017 version of this thread. This included specific info from BA on what they did to avoid cancelling our flight. You should be able to search my user name for this info. To me, not being a lawyer, it was a load of bull and could be pulled apart but CEDR decided to ignore my defence and sided with BA
im now waiting for the test case by bott and co to be completed
im now waiting for the test case by bott and co to be completed
Mar 10, 2018, 2:13 pm
#276
Join Date: Feb 2018
Programs: not sure
Posts: 10
Hi TIM So did you end up having to pay CEDR 25 pound???. If so. I reckon it should be refundable if Bott and Co win which putting CEDR in a poor light/doubt so lets see how things develop
I just Finally filled in their very unfriendly on line application but was unable to download supporting documents on the end of the 11 pages application. I tried unsuccessfully previously with on line application and e mailed them the facts with the BA responses as a e mail string to [email protected] on 18 February 2018 but no acknowledgement or response.
I just Finally filled in their very unfriendly on line application but was unable to download supporting documents on the end of the 11 pages application. I tried unsuccessfully previously with on line application and e mailed them the facts with the BA responses as a e mail string to [email protected] on 18 February 2018 but no acknowledgement or response.
Mar 10, 2018, 3:01 pm
#277
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: GLA
Programs: BD (in memoriam), BA
Posts: 1,359
Under the Regulation, the passenger is, of course, entitled to a full refund of his BA ticket to his chosen original form of payment. While it may be a bit of a nuisance because the forms of payment were different and it appears that he will need to claim the BE ticket back from his employer, it will all wash out and frankly, unless he has a truly slothful employer, he should see a reimbursement for his BE ticket from his employer before he would ever see anything from BA for the value of the BE ticket. The employer will see a refund of the BA segment and a payment for the BE segment and those will, when it is all done, counterbalance each other.
I was expecting I might have some reimbursement trouble going for the self-help rebooking, but since I was keen to get home to dig my 33wk pregnant partner out of the house(!) I decided I'd take the risk that no-one would pay me back and book the BE flight...
Mar 10, 2018, 5:28 pm
#278
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 67
You need to convince the court that internal strike action is part and parcel of running an airline.
I believe that if you were to ask the senior management of any business "who handles strike situations in your business" they would answer 'we do' who else would? and that is at the heart of this question, if a BA strike is outside of their control, how could it ever be resolved?
Mar 10, 2018, 9:02 pm
#279
Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club, easyJet and Ryanair
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK/Las Vegas
Programs: BA Gold (GGL/CCR)
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I posted my CEDR information, inc BAs defence in the 2017 version of this thread. This included specific info from BA on what they did to avoid cancelling our flight. You should be able to search my user name for this info. To me, not being a lawyer, it was a load of bull and could be pulled apart but CEDR decided to ignore my defence and sided with BA
im now waiting for the test case by bott and co to be completed
im now waiting for the test case by bott and co to be completed
Mar 10, 2018, 9:10 pm
#280
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Northern England
Posts: 1,534
Post 179 in this thread
”Here is the relevant bit of the email I received from bott and co:-
Your claim is currently on hold pending the decision of a test case. this is because the airline has provided the defence of “crew strike” this point is currently being tested and we do not yet have a hearing date.“
”Here is the relevant bit of the email I received from bott and co:-
Your claim is currently on hold pending the decision of a test case. this is because the airline has provided the defence of “crew strike” this point is currently being tested and we do not yet have a hearing date.“
Mar 10, 2018, 9:11 pm
#281
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Northern England
Posts: 1,534
Mar 10, 2018, 9:37 pm
#282
Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club, easyJet and Ryanair
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Can we collectively create a list of points that can be challenged and I will write a reply to their defence? I have put their defence under the Spoiler section for convenience.
I have now received a Directions Questionnaire from the court office. Can I submit a 'Reply to Defence' together with the DQ form?
I have now received a Directions Questionnaire from the court office. Can I submit a 'Reply to Defence' together with the DQ form?
This is not going to be easy, BA have admitted all your facts so you have nothing to prove evidently vis-à-vis the facts. This case will be decided on legal argument for the substantive claim, if you overcome that hurdle you will then have to prove your entitlement to interest (which the have denied you are entitled to) and to the exchange rate you have used to arrive at the figure claimed (upon which they have made no admission).
Mar 10, 2018, 9:44 pm
#283
Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club, easyJet and Ryanair
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK/Las Vegas
Programs: BA Gold (GGL/CCR)
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Post 179 in this thread
”Here is the relevant bit of the email I received from bott and co:-
Your claim is currently on hold pending the decision of a test case. this is because the airline has provided the defence of “crew strike” this point is currently being tested and we do not yet have a hearing date.“
”Here is the relevant bit of the email I received from bott and co:-
Your claim is currently on hold pending the decision of a test case. this is because the airline has provided the defence of “crew strike” this point is currently being tested and we do not yet have a hearing date.“
Mar 11, 2018, 12:22 am
#284
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: London
Programs: BA GGL (for now) and Lifetime Gold, Marriott fan thanks to Bonvoy Moments
Posts: 5,115
I wouldn’t bother with a Reply to Defence, you have set out your claim and BA have set out their defence. If you do wish to reply keep it brief, this is not the time to provide evidence, perhaps simply state that you deny the reason given for the cancellation in the defence amounts to an extraordinary circumstance under the Regulation. Remember it is BA who must prove this was an ‘extraordinary circumstance’ so concentrate your efforts now on challenging their assertion. CWS has provided some excellent pointers to help focus your mind.
This is not going to be easy, BA have admitted all your facts so you have nothing to prove evidently vis-à-vis the facts. This case will be decided on legal argument for the substantive claim, if you overcome that hurdle you will then have to prove your entitlement to interest (which the have denied you are entitled to) and to the exchange rate you have used to arrive at the figure claimed (upon which they have made no admission).
Given IANAL, worth considering if that point was clear in the claim. Not sure what reaction would be if only brought up in court when BA doesn’t have witness etc.
ETA Temych I’d also suggest looking at my docs linked above, I submitted the older and newer versions of the CAA “extraordinary circumstances” list to show that it has had to change based on court rulings previously, and therefore should not be given undue weight by the court
Last edited by lorcancoyle; Mar 11, 2018 at 12:27 am
Mar 11, 2018, 1:11 am
#285
Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club, easyJet and Ryanair
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK/Las Vegas
Programs: BA Gold (GGL/CCR)
Posts: 15,928
I’d also be preparing arguments / evidence on the second leg BA need to prove - I.e. an extraordinary circumstance and that they took all reasonable steps. I (surprisingly IMO) lost the first point in case against Iberia on pax checking bag in but failing to board, but won on the second. The CAA application and more recent leasing in of aircraft at LGW to hold onto slots go to the second point - I.e. if BA could lease in X aircraft from QR then, and Y aircraft from others now, what was the basis for why they could not lease enough aircraft then. I think there’s less subjectivity in this line.
Given IANAL, worth considering if that point was clear in the claim. Not sure what reaction would be if only brought up in court when BA doesn’t have witness etc.
ETA Temych I’d also suggest looking at my docs linked above, I submitted the older and newer versions of the CAA “extraordinary circumstances” list to show that it has had to change based on court rulings previously, and therefore should not be given undue weight by the court