Is De-Icing Really Considered 'Extraordinary Circumstances'
Dec 12, 2017, 9:45 am
#91
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London
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A quick Google search shows the following when I search for average number of days with frost in London between 2000 and 2017:
Nov - 2, Dec - 5, Jan - 6, Feb - 5
I don't think snow is relevant, as I assume you will often have to de-ice even when there's no snow, but average snow days show as:
Dec - 1.5, Jan 2.2, Feb 1.5
Now, this is not proper Finland-style winter but enough to merit some preparation ...
Nov - 2, Dec - 5, Jan - 6, Feb - 5
I don't think snow is relevant, as I assume you will often have to de-ice even when there's no snow, but average snow days show as:
Dec - 1.5, Jan 2.2, Feb 1.5
Now, this is not proper Finland-style winter but enough to merit some preparation ...
Dec 12, 2017, 10:15 am
#92
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 34
Even the regional online newspapers were flagging it up from the 4th Dec onwards (quoting the Weather Channel and UK Met Office)
I'm sure the Met Office would have had one of their Yellow or Amber warnings issued too. Anyone know how to find an archive of previously issued ones ?
Last edited by Snafu_again; Dec 12, 2017 at 10:31 am
Dec 12, 2017, 10:31 am
#94
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 935
Sorry, but the possibility of snow was in the forecasts.
Even the regional online newspapers were flagging it up from the 4th Dec onwards (quoting the Weather Channel and UK Met Office) as can be seen here ..... Weather forecast: Country set for 'blanket of snow' and it could fall across Surrey and London - Get Surrey
I'm sure the Met Office would have had one of their Yellow or Amber warnings issued too. Anyone know how to find an archive of previously issued ones ?
Even the regional online newspapers were flagging it up from the 4th Dec onwards (quoting the Weather Channel and UK Met Office) as can be seen here ..... Weather forecast: Country set for 'blanket of snow' and it could fall across Surrey and London - Get Surrey
I'm sure the Met Office would have had one of their Yellow or Amber warnings issued too. Anyone know how to find an archive of previously issued ones ?
Dec 12, 2017, 11:35 am
#95
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 34
LOL .. yes it was me ! I'd forgotten that I'd commented about their dreadful hype on anything weather related. Seems they got it right for once ! I edited my previous post to remove the link because I wasn't sure if it was allowed to include web links ?
Dec 12, 2017, 11:38 am
#96
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: LHR Air Traffic Control
Programs: BAEC Silver
Posts: 875
ORD learned it's lesson the hard way a couple of times last year when the forecast was wrong. Now, every single snow event (regardless of the amount) has an initial conference call 24 hours out with a plan of action between the City, FAA, Airlines and Handling agents. Then followup conference calls at a time agreed to by all parties as the event happens. Everyone knows exactly where everyone stands when it comes status of equipment (percentage operable), staffing, airspace management but most importantly there's no surprises or finger pointing. It's a airport wide team effort and I just don't see this at LHR.
Argue this...what's the outcome if BA doesn't de-ice aircraft, just snow and go.... Otherwise, it has to be built into their SOP for weather based on safety alone.
Argue this...what's the outcome if BA doesn't de-ice aircraft, just snow and go.... Otherwise, it has to be built into their SOP for weather based on safety alone.
Dec 12, 2017, 11:38 am
#97
Join Date: Jan 2017
Programs: HH - Gold, BA - Blue
Posts: 188
You also talk about "the norm" - I'm pretty sure (and happy to be corrected,) this was not normal for Heathrow or Stansted or indeed Luton.
Also - The poster who keeps going on about freezing rain, I believe BA said Heavy Rain delayed the overnight / early de icing of aircraft.
Dec 12, 2017, 11:43 am
#98
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: LHR Air Traffic Control
Programs: BAEC Silver
Posts: 875
as I said elsewhere, why did they not use the deicing pads! It is the norm at airports that deal with this regularly and gets aircraft away from the gates so others can start to disembark.
I did it at WAW a week ago, taxied out to the pad by the end of the runway, two sets of deicing trucks so two planes could be done at the same time then off to the runway and take off. Its like a car wash you Q up for instead of this nonsense of sitting at the gate waiting for the truck to come to you
I did it at WAW a week ago, taxied out to the pad by the end of the runway, two sets of deicing trucks so two planes could be done at the same time then off to the runway and take off. Its like a car wash you Q up for instead of this nonsense of sitting at the gate waiting for the truck to come to you
Dec 12, 2017, 11:53 am
#99
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: London, UK
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The question remains. Is anyone affected taking legal action? I would if I had been affected.
I don't think BA can get away with calling a little bit of snow in December 'exceptional circumstances'.
I don't think BA can get away with calling a little bit of snow in December 'exceptional circumstances'.
Dec 12, 2017, 12:16 pm
#100
Join Date: Sep 2015
Programs: LH SEN; BA Gold
Posts: 8,405
Yes, and I have seen what actual snow (not the kind of slush we got on Sunday) in London looks and feels like. There's nothing even remotely freakish about snow, ice and negative temperatures during winter months. Sure, it's a rare occurrence but it is one that can be dealt with relatively well. Even for London. Sure it's not Antartica or even Scandinavia in terms of winter conditions but that doesn't make it unpredictable. Most forecast had predicted much colder and wintery conditions (i.e. the kind of conditions where you'd have to deice your aircrafts). Compare that to heavy snowfall (causing runway closures), storms of all sorts, etc. where you can't just spray chemicals onto a plane and have it take off.
But please, continue saying that this was so unpredictable that BA couldn't cope with it whereas other carriers seem to have done relatively well (in terms of canceled flights/total number of flights).
FWIW the meltdown on Sunday may not be cause for compensation but it should raise serious questions over BA's operations. The "Oh, but there have been severe disruptions due to weather" is simply not good enough as an excuse for the many passenger being stuck at Heathrow.
But please, continue saying that this was so unpredictable that BA couldn't cope with it whereas other carriers seem to have done relatively well (in terms of canceled flights/total number of flights).
FWIW the meltdown on Sunday may not be cause for compensation but it should raise serious questions over BA's operations. The "Oh, but there have been severe disruptions due to weather" is simply not good enough as an excuse for the many passenger being stuck at Heathrow.
Dec 12, 2017, 2:55 pm
#103
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 5
Do we know what level of de-icing service BA contracts for ?
I heard from a good source today that many other airlines pay for a premium de-icing service. This ensures sufficient stock is retained at Key locations. From what I understand, BA doesn’t contract for this platinum service... could explain why gatwick only had a few delays and cancellations... not helped by BA blocking Key access routes with stranded aircraft around the airport
Dec 12, 2017, 3:54 pm
#104
Join Date: Sep 2011
Programs: BA Gold
Posts: 1,076
It's a very good question, and in these particular circumstances probably decent chances of prevailing (was just re-reading Huzar and Wallentin-Herman in the context of something completely unrelated and you can find arguments there which lend some support) but if GBP 300 is universally offered to those affected as the other thread seems to suggest, we may never get to know the answer. I'd certainly just take 300 quid and forget about it.
Dec 12, 2017, 4:36 pm
#105
Ambassador: Emirates Airlines
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Location: Manchester, UK
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