Definitas

Is there any way to check flight loads for past flights? Specifically I want to find out if there were any spare seats on BA0295 LHR-ORD on 17 March 18 and BA0294 ORD-LHR also on 17 March. I'm trying to build an EU261 case against BA. thanks for any help

mikeyfly

There's a thread specifically for these queries - have a look there

Historical British Airways flight delays - information requests

KARFA

I understand you are trying to show the flight was lightly loaded and therefore BA cancelled due to convenience rather than weather issues? If that's the case I think you'll struggle as the actual booked loads are information only BA has internally. Also you need to take in to account the passengers on the return flight as well.

However, rather than trying to advance a speculative theory about why it was cancelled - at the end of the day if it wasn't weather it could have been anything rather than simply light loads - you would be better off simply challenging BA to produce evidence of the weather issues.

Globaliser

At Heathrow (and probably at some other airports), airlines have an incentive not to cancel flights merely for reasons of load. An airline that has been allocated a slot must use that slot a certain percentage of times (IIRC, 80% or something like that) in order to keep the right to operate the same slot in the following year. An airline at LHR that cancels flights merely for low loads runs the risk of losing the right to keep the slot in the following year. And given that slot pairs can change hands for double digit millions, that right is a very valuable one. Airlines have sometimes been known deliberately to run entire routes with largely-empty aircraft, simply to keep the right to the slots. Whenever someone suggests the idea that BA might cancel a particular rotation just because of low loads that day, this puts such assertions into a bit of perspective.

The other thing that you can have no idea about is what the actual loads were. Counting the number of passengers does not tell you the full story, because much of the profitable load on a flight can be in the form of cargo. So even if it turns out that relatively few passengers were affected by the cancellations, the airline may also have had to cancel a lot of valuable cargo as well.

UKtravelbear

You asked on the AA board about arrival times of 3 AA flights that operated to ORD on the 17th March. You also asked the same on the UA board.

Just because one alrline operated their flights does not mean another should have operated theirs.

If it was weather and ATC put in restrictions then airlines have to chose which flights to cancel. BA as the biggest airline at LHR takes the biggest hit in terms of bald numbers.

AA and UA may have cancelled flights to other destinations that day. I don't think that will help your case with BA

Definitas

Thanks for the info. I realise that the burden of proof for the cancellation rests with BA but wanted the background just to judge how things might be. I do know that the AA and UA flights operated that day but don't know the details. I just feel that, being as the earlier BA "merged" flight departed on time then the later flight could also have departed. Additionally, if the AA and UA flights operated then it would seem likely that "extreme" weather conditions required by EU261 will potentially not apply. I also know that pretty much all BA flights to the US operated that day with the exception of one NY flight which also underpins the fact that weather conditions were not "exceptional"

KARFA

As noted before, I really would caution about trying to put some argument in your claim on what you hypothetically think may think the reason for the cancellation, assuming BA's reason of weather is not correct. Stick to the facts of what happened to you in terms of the cancellation and the delay and get BA to produce evidence of the weather which they have said was a problem. Have you got information on specifically where BA are stating the weather was a problem?

If you advance speculative theories in your claim for why you think it may have been cancelled you are just leading yourself down a rabbit warren and helping confuse the matter unnecessarily.

I also note that there was snow disruption and other pro-active flight cancellations by BA at LHR on that date as noted in this thread Snow [Yellow Warning] : Cancellations & disruption Mar 17 / 18 2018 so certainly the suggestion by BA that BA297 was cancelled due to weather doesn't seem at odds with the conditions at the time.

Globaliser

This simply doesn't follow.

Although it seems that this is not what happened in your case, take one common weather example that we see a lot here. If bad weather is expected in London, airlines are often asked in advance to reduce their operations by (say) 10%. So 1 in 10 flights will be pro-actively cancelled in the hope that the remaining nine operate more or less as scheduled. But you can't then point to the nine that operated normally as evidence that the tenth flight wasn't cancelled because of weather - in that situation it most assuredly was.

You seem to have convinced yourself that BA was lying to you about your cancellation was not caused by weather. That may or may not have been the case, but it won't help if you don't ensure that you understand some of the logical fallacies that people sometimes fall into.

UKtravelbear

I just remembered that the CAA publishes a list of tactical cancellations - here

For 17th March it lists BA296 to ORD.

There were no AA or UA tactical cancellations that day (i.e done in advance) but the list does not include 'on the day' cancellations.

On other days e.g. 2nd March AA and UA did have tactical cancellations whilst other airlines didn't - I surmise this is part of sharing the load of cancellations other a period of time rather than everything having to be equal on individual days.

The CAA states on that page

Given the CAA statement I really can't see BA paying out.

Definitas

Thanks once again for sound advice. I wasn't going to quote any of those things but rather was trying to weigh up the balance of probabilities moving forward. I don't pretend to even begin to understand the ins and outs of EU261 or the precedents which have already been established (but I have done a lot of reading including all 51 pages of the FT thread). However, having looked at flight data, I had begun to be convinced that, although the conditions were not great on the day, that they were not "exceptional". Things have however moved on because, in the meantime, I have ascertained that the legal cover provided by my household insurer will cover litigation, should it become necessary. I have sent the letter of intent to BA so, in the event they don't accept liability, I will pass everything on to the legal service. I'll update the post once I have more information. In the meantime, thanks to everyone for help and advice

Definitas

I have to admit, that does put a totally different slant on things and would seem to rule out any BA liability for the cancellation. However, I will still be looking into what, if any, liability they have for not getting us home on 17 March though, being as several options appear to have been available. I note that the CAA information says that these tactical cancellations are made to enable airlines to notify pax early

I quote: The reduction in capacity was to ensure flights could continue to operate safely and airlines could give advance notice to their passengers.

In fact, although we are both registered for Email and SMS alerts as well as alerts via the App, we did not receive any notification of cancellation from BA (which they admitted to). In fact, we found out almost by chance from someone in the US who would have been on the cancelled flight on his outbound leg and was contacted by his TA. Had BA notified us on 16 March we would have been able to get back without any delay as there were seats on both BA and BA codeshare (AA) flights. As it is, when I contacted them on 17 March, they automatically booked us on the flight 24 hours later without any mention of the other options so we may still qualify for compensation based on the unnecessary delay

KARFA

I have to say that there was snow that day and there were a number of cancellations. If that doesn't suggest there were exceptional weather based circumstances I don't know what does tbh. Being blunt, I think you are wasting your time trying to claim BA297 was cancelled for anything other than weather, and the only way that would succeed is if you have some proof to the contrary - i.e. something from BA stating the aircraft went tech or similar. Comparisons to other airlines LHR-ORD operations that day is not proof of that. Claiming it wasn't a weather cancellation when clearly there was some very significant weather that day is going to get you nowhere especially when BA show the extent of the cancellations that day due to that weather:

I think the only point you could go on would be that BA themselves were under-prepared in terms of de-icing equipment and personal and therefore some cancellations could have been avoided. There are other threads on this point and certainly I think some folks have suggested they have filed claims on this basis.

Insurance may cover costs of litigation but this won't be a blank cheque. Be assured that there will be conditions on what they will fund and they will look at the merits of what you want to litigate and decide whether they want to fund it. They may take as equally a dim view of the prospects of success as I do for your case.

Definitas

Thanks KARFA. I think you are absolutely correct. I knew that there were lots of short haul cancellations but long haul was hardly affected which I thought might serve as precedent. However, I had no idea that "tactical" cancellations are done in advance and am grateful to UKtravelbear for pointing out that significant piece of information. I am now convinced that I have no chance of going down the cancellation route. As per my earlier post though, I haven't given up on being delayed due to BA not notifying us of the cancellation. I do know that there were seats available on an AA codeshare which took off an hour after our intended departure (although they were in Y and we were in J). Incidentally, and slightly off topic, BA stated categorically that you cant rely on the App for notifications as it is still in "beta". They were still looking into why we (and many other pax) were not notified by other means.

Confus

Did you book direct with BA or through a travel agent? If the latter, note that some agents choose not to pass their customers' contact details on to airlines, and as such the airlines may not always have a means of contacting some people in disruption. Furthermore, if you did book through a TA, it is technically the agent's responsibility to notify you, not the airline's. Obviously this is all moot if you did book direct with BA, and if you furnished them with correct contact details.

Definitas