Fare anomaly when combining CE with FlyBe feeder flight
Sep 16, 2017, 9:01 pm
#1
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Fare anomaly when combining CE with FlyBe feeder flight
I've been looking at options for connecting flights using the NQY-LGW codeshare and onwards to Italy from LGW and discovered some surprising pricing which I wondered if anyone else has experienced / can explain. Where there are good value CE flights out of LGW I'm keen to use them as I currently don't have status, and lounge access through what can be a lengthy stopover is worth having (I realise that there's a whole discussion about the value of CE generally, but let's take that as read). Obviously I'm keen to get single ticket treatment for connection protection.
When I priced up a few options, using GOA [Genoa] as an example the CE price seemed disproportionately high. Given that FlyBe is one-class and codeshare legs appear to book into their "Get More" ticket band whether tagged onto an ET or CE flight, I expected that the delta between an economy and business ticket would be roughly the same whether I booked NQY-LGW-GOA or just LGW-GOA (i.e. the NQY bolt-on should cost the same regardless of the cost of the BA leg).
In in practice there's a huge difference. Fees and charges work "properly" so the total on a through-ticket equals the sum of the amounts charged on the same tickets booked separately through FlyBe and BA. But looking at the pure fare element of the price I get the following:
ET LGW-GOA £32 / NQY-LGW-GOA £128
(£96 for FlyBe leg)
CE LGW-GOA £149 / NQY-LGW-GOA £375
(£226 for FlyBe leg)
Both examples are return flights 13-20 November. If booked separately the fare component of the FlyBe leg is £109.38 - so the ET fare looks like a bargain.
Does anyone know if this is "correct" rather than an online booking engine error? The only things I can see that the CE ticket might entitle me to other than usual benefits on the LGW-GOA leg are lounge access at NQY outbound and possibly LGW inbound. Perhaps a few more Avios/TP on NQY-LGW too, but not obviously £130 of benefit there.
)This is before getting started on the inability to price/book the journey as a redemption online, and the curious non-combinability of HBO fares... )
When I priced up a few options, using GOA [Genoa] as an example the CE price seemed disproportionately high. Given that FlyBe is one-class and codeshare legs appear to book into their "Get More" ticket band whether tagged onto an ET or CE flight, I expected that the delta between an economy and business ticket would be roughly the same whether I booked NQY-LGW-GOA or just LGW-GOA (i.e. the NQY bolt-on should cost the same regardless of the cost of the BA leg).
In in practice there's a huge difference. Fees and charges work "properly" so the total on a through-ticket equals the sum of the amounts charged on the same tickets booked separately through FlyBe and BA. But looking at the pure fare element of the price I get the following:
ET LGW-GOA £32 / NQY-LGW-GOA £128
(£96 for FlyBe leg)
CE LGW-GOA £149 / NQY-LGW-GOA £375
(£226 for FlyBe leg)
Both examples are return flights 13-20 November. If booked separately the fare component of the FlyBe leg is £109.38 - so the ET fare looks like a bargain.
Does anyone know if this is "correct" rather than an online booking engine error? The only things I can see that the CE ticket might entitle me to other than usual benefits on the LGW-GOA leg are lounge access at NQY outbound and possibly LGW inbound. Perhaps a few more Avios/TP on NQY-LGW too, but not obviously £130 of benefit there.
)This is before getting started on the inability to price/book the journey as a redemption online, and the curious non-combinability of HBO fares... )
Sep 16, 2017, 10:22 pm
#2
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Have you checked what actual booking class the BE connection books into in each BA fare scenario? I appreciate the BE service class may be the same throughout but there may be other subtle differences being added in - 2 checked bags as a matter of course when selecting Club for example. While this may be a bolt on option at FlyBE.com it may be a standard feature of the fare type you're purchasing at ba.com - whether you want it or not. It might also be that the BE connection books into a higher fare type (letter designator) when selecting BA Club because lower fare types are excluded in conjunction with business class fares - and similarly does the class designator remain the same for BA Club when pricing with and without the BE addon? Again it could be that I class is available and prices accordingly as a LGW-GOA-LGW but cannot be combined and reverts to R class when bought with your feeder flights. I don't know anything for certain, these are just suggestions that may go some way to explain the anomalies you are experiencing.
Last edited by 1Aturnleft; Sep 16, 2017 at 10:33 pm
Sep 16, 2017, 10:26 pm
#3
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Have you checked whether you're getting a broken fare rather than a through fare?
Sep 17, 2017, 2:05 am
#4
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There are other anomalies booking BA ex nqy.
For example you can book using haribos NQY-LGW-JER in CE for the BA legs. But you can't book it via BA for cash !
cs
For example you can book using haribos NQY-LGW-JER in CE for the BA legs. But you can't book it via BA for cash !
cs
Sep 17, 2017, 2:13 am
#5
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This isn't unusual in this scenario, it's been going on for decades. There are several factors at play here, and the biggest are the existence of end-on-end inventory (where 2 fares get added together, which is what you are seeing on some components here), through price pricing (a straightforward fare from NQY to GOA, probably doesn't exist though) and the combinability rules. So Basic fares currently can't be combined, but will in the next few months, FlyBe may well not be doing the same.
The way I handle this is generally to book in the lowest ET/Economy fare, but in one that allows for Avios upgrade to Club Europe on the BA legs, ideally fare bucket N, that is usually the most cost effective of doing this if the flight is someway off. Then the UuA cost is something like £30 and the relevant Avios, often not so different from what you would earn.
At a given price point I just take the risk (or rearrange the schedule) and accept two separate tickets.
Incidentally having CE on your through ticket won't allow you access to the lounge in NQY, unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. But you can buy access or get Priority Pass access, but remember to get the code before going into security, from the info desk by the side of the check-in desk banks. Though NQY is one of those airports where you can safely turn up 40 minutes (the deadline with checked luggage is 30 minutes) before departure and thereby walk straight on to the flight.
The way I handle this is generally to book in the lowest ET/Economy fare, but in one that allows for Avios upgrade to Club Europe on the BA legs, ideally fare bucket N, that is usually the most cost effective of doing this if the flight is someway off. Then the UuA cost is something like £30 and the relevant Avios, often not so different from what you would earn.
At a given price point I just take the risk (or rearrange the schedule) and accept two separate tickets.
Incidentally having CE on your through ticket won't allow you access to the lounge in NQY, unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. But you can buy access or get Priority Pass access, but remember to get the code before going into security, from the info desk by the side of the check-in desk banks. Though NQY is one of those airports where you can safely turn up 40 minutes (the deadline with checked luggage is 30 minutes) before departure and thereby walk straight on to the flight.
Sep 17, 2017, 2:23 am
#6
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Have you checked what actual booking class the BE connection books into in each BA fare scenario? I appreciate the BE service class may be the same throughout but there may be other subtle differences being added in - 2 checked bags as a matter of course when selecting Club for example. While this may be a bolt on option at FlyBE.com it may be a standard feature of the fare type you're purchasing at ba.com - whether you want it or not. It might also be that the BE connection books into a higher fare type (letter designator) when selecting BA Club because lower fare types are excluded in conjunction with business class fares - and similarly does the class designator remain the same for BA Club when pricing with and without the BE addon? Again it could be that I class is available and prices accordingly as a LGW-GOA-LGW but cannot be combined and reverts to R class when bought with your feeder flights. I don't know anything for certain, these are just suggestions that may go some way to explain the anomalies you are experiencing.
Flexibility appears identical.
Is there any way of working around this or does it mean that I have to pay a large premium to add essentially the same product onto a more expensive ticket? Intuitively that feels the wrong way round, though I'm fairly new to this and have no idea if it's standard airline practice.
Sep 17, 2017, 2:45 am
#7
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@c-w-s thanks, that makes sense (although frustrating that there isn't a better answer). I can't say I've ever looked at the NQY lounge and felt saddened by my lack of access, and rarely spend more the 35 mins in the airport as you'd expect.
I know this has been done plenty but can't find the answer: would I get LGW lounge access on the return connection or not?
Unfortunately the LGW routes I look at (CTA, BRI, FCO, GOA, VCE) seem to be universally capped at 2 business class Avios availability during any school holiday period, and there are three of us.
@ CS - do you know if that's bookable online? I can't make any NQY connections book using Avios.
I know this has been done plenty but can't find the answer: would I get LGW lounge access on the return connection or not?
Unfortunately the LGW routes I look at (CTA, BRI, FCO, GOA, VCE) seem to be universally capped at 2 business class Avios availability during any school holiday period, and there are three of us.
@ CS - do you know if that's bookable online? I can't make any NQY connections book using Avios.
Last edited by PZE; Sep 17, 2017 at 2:52 am
Sep 17, 2017, 3:04 am
#8
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I know this has been done plenty but can't find the answer: would I get LGW lounge access on the return connection or not?
Unfortunately the LGW routes I look at (CTA, BRI, FCO, GOA, VCE) seem to be universally capped at 2 business class Avios availability during any school holiday period, and there are three of us.
Unfortunately the LGW routes I look at (CTA, BRI, FCO, GOA, VCE) seem to be universally capped at 2 business class Avios availability during any school holiday period, and there are three of us.
BRI and CTA doesn't have a lounge, GOA is a poor one. VCE and FCO are good, though the latter gets unfairly slagged off by some FTers.
Sep 17, 2017, 3:04 am
#9
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There are through-fares filed on NQYGOA. Some are constructed fares, that is, automatically generated from a base fare and and add on, such as the Q fare you noticed.
As you suggest, the add on cost in CE is somewhat higher.
Others are specifically filed on the city pair (to my surprise), such as the RK2VK fare.
What you pay for passage on BE is not what BA pays for you to travel on BE when you purchase an interline journey.
BE may well charge a premium to BA, for the connection liability if the BE plane is late, for the additional baggage liability BE may incur, et c.
Also it may be that the tax payer subsidy agreement on NQY-LGW only covers direct journeys, or requires a certain capacity on the aircraft be reserved for direct journeys.
I suspect the real answer is that BA is not particularly interested in selling journeys from NQY.
Code:
INTERNATIONAL CONSTRUCTION
** ADDONS FOR INFORMATION ONLY **
FARE--RT
PUBLISHED AMOUNT CONVERTED AMOUNT
ADDON CITIES F/B CUR VIA NUC
ADDON ORG NQY-LON QKV2K GBP 48.00 GBP 48.00
ATP ZONE 200 ADD-ON TARIFF AARBS/986
PUBLISHED LON-GOA QKV2K GBP 86.00 GBP 86.00
GBP CONVERTED TO USD USING BSR 1 GBP - 1.33006364 USD
.
Code:
INTERNATIONAL CONSTRUCTION
** ADDONS FOR INFORMATION ONLY **
FARE--RT
PUBLISHED AMOUNT CONVERTED AMOUNT
ADDON CITIES F/B CUR VIA NUC
ADDON ORG NQY-LON IHV2K GBP 226.00 GBP 226.00
ATP ZONE 200 ADD-ON TARIFF AARBS/986
PUBLISHED LON-GOA IHV2K GBP 167.00 GBP 167.00
GBP CONVERTED TO USD USING BSR 1 GBP - 1.33006364 USD
.
Intuitively that feels the wrong way round, though I'm fairly new to this and have no idea if it's standard airline practice.
BE may well charge a premium to BA, for the connection liability if the BE plane is late, for the additional baggage liability BE may incur, et c.
Also it may be that the tax payer subsidy agreement on NQY-LGW only covers direct journeys, or requires a certain capacity on the aircraft be reserved for direct journeys.
I suspect the real answer is that BA is not particularly interested in selling journeys from NQY.
Sep 17, 2017, 3:07 am
#10
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Sep 17, 2017, 3:21 am
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I'm wondering if that is correct actually, the other fares in that rule all seem to be constructed. The international construction category for RK2VK does not say "Not a constructed fare" but rather is totally omitted.
Sep 17, 2017, 9:59 am
#12
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Thanks for all the helpful comments. I understand at least some of it, and using ITA Matrix have been able to price out N, O and Y fares to get an idea of the differences. A couple more questions for those who know about this if I may
- is there anything definitive which states which booking classes may be combined with an R class leg on BA in CE? It defaults to either Y (using the BA codeshare for the BE flight) or B (using the BE code) - are there rules stating that other booking classes can't be combined and/or any way of forcing ITA to specify booking classes leg by leg?
- more fundamentally, why does it work this why? I understand that what BE charges BA isn't necessarily what BA passes on but I'm struggling to understand why the BE element is bucketed differently depending on the fare class booked on BA. I'm assuming this isn't something that BE care about as they are selling on the same product to BA either way, surely for the same price, so BA are effectively marking up the bought-in product more in one case than the other. I can see reasonable commercial reasons for that, but would have thought it would be the other way round: i.e. make the connection available more cheaply if you spend a greater amount of your money on a CE leg, rather than the current structure which seems to drive you towards a cheaper BA ticket.
I take the point that BA doesn't perhaps much care about whether you fly from NQY or not (after all, WW is clear they'd never dream of flying to such dreadful places
) but I can't get my head round why they'd rather push people from NQY towards the cheap seats.
- is there anything definitive which states which booking classes may be combined with an R class leg on BA in CE? It defaults to either Y (using the BA codeshare for the BE flight) or B (using the BE code) - are there rules stating that other booking classes can't be combined and/or any way of forcing ITA to specify booking classes leg by leg?
- more fundamentally, why does it work this why? I understand that what BE charges BA isn't necessarily what BA passes on but I'm struggling to understand why the BE element is bucketed differently depending on the fare class booked on BA. I'm assuming this isn't something that BE care about as they are selling on the same product to BA either way, surely for the same price, so BA are effectively marking up the bought-in product more in one case than the other. I can see reasonable commercial reasons for that, but would have thought it would be the other way round: i.e. make the connection available more cheaply if you spend a greater amount of your money on a CE leg, rather than the current structure which seems to drive you towards a cheaper BA ticket.
I take the point that BA doesn't perhaps much care about whether you fly from NQY or not (after all, WW is clear they'd never dream of flying to such dreadful places
) but I can't get my head round why they'd rather push people from NQY towards the cheap seats.
Sep 17, 2017, 10:42 am
#13
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Sep 17, 2017, 1:09 pm
#14
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- is there anything definitive which states which booking classes may be combined with an R class leg on BA in CE? It defaults to either Y (using the BA codeshare for the BE flight) or B (using the BE code) - are there rules stating that other booking classes can't be combined and/or any way of forcing ITA to specify booking classes leg by leg?
You cannot arbitrarily glue fares together. Fares can only be combined under certain circumstances. In particular, all fares on the same ticket have to permit it. But BA fares on LON-GOA are not combinable with BE fares. You have to use a single through-fare from one end to the other.
From the Permitted Combinations category of the rule used to generate LON-GOA fares—
Code:
OPEN JAWS/ROUND TRIPS/CIRCLE TRIPS/END-ON-END
FARES MAY BE COMBINED ON A HALF ROUND TRIP BASIS
-TO FORM SINGLE OR DOUBLE OPEN JAWS
A MAXIMUM OF TWO INTERNATIONAL FARE COMPONENTS
PERMITTED. MILEAGE OF THE OPEN SEGMENT MUST BE EQUAL/
LESS THAN MILEAGE OF THE LONGEST FLOWN FARE
COMPONENT.
-TO FORM ROUND TRIPS/CIRCLE TRIPS. END-ON-END
COMBINATIONS PERMITTED. VALIDATE ALL FARE
COMBINATIONS.
PROVIDED -
COMBINATIONS ARE WITH ANY FARE FOR CARRIER BA
BETWEEN UNITED KINGDOM AND LIBYA
OR FOR CARRIER BA/IB/VY/EI WITHIN EUROPE IN ANY
RULE IN ANY TARIFF.
IF THE FARE COMPONENT IS ON
ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING
ANY IB FLIGHT OPERATED BY IB
ANY IB FLIGHT OPERATED BY BA
ANY IB FLIGHT OPERATED BY VY
ANY IB FLIGHT OPERATED BY EI
ANY EI FLIGHT OPERATED BY EI
ANY EI FLIGHT OPERATED BY BA
ANY EI FLIGHT OPERATED BY IB
ANY BA FLIGHT
ANY VY FLIGHT.
Let us say you wish to travel in business class on BA. We will look at the BA fare tariff and find RKV2K is the cheapest business fare on this market. (Unusually, there is no IKV2K.) Let us assume that you meet all the conditions such as advance purchase, adulthood, minimum stay, et c that qualify you to buy this fare.
This fare will cover us to travel on BE or BA from NQY to LGW. We can look at the booking code exceptions table to find which class to book.
If we use the BE code, the booking class will be as follows:
Code:
>$LB42/BE
042 NQYGOA 17SEP17 BA GBP 375.00 RKV2K STAY-02/-- BK-R
FARE CLS EXPLANATION BOOK CODES
-------- ---------------------- ----------
RKV2K SHOULDER SEASON BUSINESS CLASS EXCURSION R
RKV2K NONREF FARES
RKV2K WITHIN EUROPE FOR ROUND TRIP FARES
BOOKING CODE EXCEPTIONS FOR CARRIER: BE
IF VIA BA ALL BUSINESS
VIA BE U REQUIRED WHEN AVAILABLE
IF VIA BA ALL BUSINESS
VIA BE B REQUIRED
How BE sets up their pricing tariff is neither here nor there. Maybe B class on BE costs £5000 or £5 on their fares. It is not part of this calculus.
I can't get my head round why they'd rather push people from NQY towards the cheap seats.
Last edited by Calchas; Sep 17, 2017 at 1:17 pm
Sep 17, 2017, 1:45 pm
#15
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I think I get most of that - thank you for going through all the detail. The bit I still don't understand is why a "cheapest economy" flight search books the BE segment into O but a "cheapest business" flight search books it into Y (ie still economy but more expensive). Despite the quoted rules it's not booking into either B or U, at least based on the fare class that BA state in their booking engine.
I'm not trying to reconcile back to published BE fares - I agree that wouldn't make sense - I'm trying to reconcile the elements that make up an all-economy ticket to the elements that make up a business + economy ticket. I certainly agree it's not likely to be a conscious policy to price this specific route a certain way.
Anyway, I've always said it's a nice drive from Penzance to Gatwick
I'm not trying to reconcile back to published BE fares - I agree that wouldn't make sense - I'm trying to reconcile the elements that make up an all-economy ticket to the elements that make up a business + economy ticket. I certainly agree it's not likely to be a conscious policy to price this specific route a certain way.
Anyway, I've always said it's a nice drive from Penzance to Gatwick