DrFlyerT

Thanks for the responses, truly overwhelming and motivating. (Pardon my spelling grammar btw)

I had forgotten that ultimately I have been "placed by the airline in a class lower than that for which the ticket was purchased” – be that 6 mins or 6 months prior departure - huge thanks for that reminder!

To those who suggest I have ‘made my bed’ with BA, the EC is quite clear that “if the passenger is not correctly informed of his rights and for that reason accepts compensation which is inferior to that provided for in this regulation, the passenger shall be entitled to take the necessary proceedings before the competent courts in order to obtain the due compensation”. So all hope is not lost.

Not only does BA fail to inform passengers of their rights but relies upon such lack of information and blurred lines to shirk their obligations. In cases like this they are also purposefully vague as to whether an fully fledged cancellation has occurred or if this is the same flight merely with an equipment change. Anyway, their CoC state that in cases of cancellation pax are entitled to flights to “the destination shown on their ticket in the class of service paid for” - Why on earth then I was told it was a “mistaken, good will gesture” to offer me rerouting on F.

It’s easy to go round in circles here but I guess if I am going to fight for and achieve a desired outcome a better question to ask might be…..If your downgrade occurs due to ‘cancellation’ or ‘equipment change’ and you’ve ample forewarning on what grounds would BA avoid paying you compensation under the EU regs…. And would their reasoning stand up in court? So to find out, this out I might write to them with a (somewhat green) letter, asking up front for 75% refund (knowing that they’ll refuse) just to see their official line of reasoning…

I’ll take baby-steps… maybe if I give them them enough rope….?

andrelux

I am not a lawyer. My view when faced with this situation, with 7 months' notice, was that I was probably not in the territory in which the spirit of downgrade legislation applied. That far out, it's more a case of 'oh, bother' rather than 'this is causing me serious grief'. I think legislation is quite a bit tighter closer than 7 months from departure time.

Andriyko

I guess it depends how one look at things. The way I see it, no one places anyone into a lower cabin. The cabin is withdrawn and the flight is canceled because of that. A new flight is loaded into the system and passengers in the now non-existent cabin are re-accommodated in a lower cabin pending their confirmation that they want to travel in that cabin. This can be dealt with either through a full refund and a purchase of a new ticket, or, to avoid that, a refund of the difference between the higher cabin and the lower cabin. The airline does not have to place the passenger anywhere in the event of a cancellation this far out. The airline may re-book the passenger into a lower cabin to protect them on that flight in case they choose to travel on that flight in the lower cabin. Just because they were automatically re-booked does not mean that they were placed there. Would it be different if the airline simply refunded the fare and the passenger had to look for new flights? Would it be considered that the passenger placed him/herself into that (lower) cabin?

simpletastes

Interesting. I'd argue that the effect to the passenger is the same. Does it matter what the airline does? All this, including the cancellation, is under their control and is a commercial decision at the end of the day.

I also don't like the asymmetry of passengers not being able to cancel non-refundable tickets but the airline able to cancel flights without penalty. The latter is almost always a commercial decision ultimately and may result in the passenger needing to rebook with another airline potentially at a higher cost.

Andriyko

I agree with that. When (if) the revised rules come to life, I hope they include the obligation for the airline to buy a passenger a new ticket to the same destination on the same date even if the airline does not serve that route anymore. There are destinations and dates when buying a ticket 6 months in advance and 4 months in advance can have a huge difference in price. Refunding an X amount when a new ticket costs double the X amount is not a proper remedy.

simpletastes

I'm sure that's a better attitude with which to approach life!

But what I find unacceptable is airlines making commercial decisions (cancellations, equipment swaps, withdrawing from certain destinations, combining flights) and taking passengers for a ride *WHEN* they do not provide fair compensation.

Andriyko

It can cause serious grief though. In this particular case a cabin was withdrawn so I would settle for a refund of the difference in fare but when a route is canceled buying a new ticket with a different airline can be more expensive even 7 months in advance. So, I think requiring airlines to buy a new ticket to the same destination on a different airline is a good thing (as much as I disagree with some of the requirements of the EU Reg).

corporate-wage-slave

I suspect you will need to take the flight before you get anywhere with refunds (unless you go for the cancellation), simply because anything could happen between now and then (e.g. you don't fly at all). But make sure you record all you can now in terms of fares and differentials, finding that out later may be problematic. As for baby steps, I wouldn't try too hard. When you have decided what you are going to do then you best use the EC261 thread and stick to the script. BA doesn't really get attrition. In the mean time, if you want changes to your current booking I would contact YouFirst, don't bother talking EC261 with them (it's not their department and they probably very little about it), but do try and get the best outcome that suits you and your sister.

andrelux

Never said that it couldn't. Just that in my case I was offered the difference in price, which that far out wasn't serious grief (particularly since I end up with the same number of Avios), or a re-routing in F or a full refund. I was happy to take the first, since it felt "fair(est... ish)" to me.

Looking at EU261, it seemed like there was a case, and that BA were going out of their way to dissemble. The use of 'cancelled' for my return flight which was downgraded (allied to a 15 min time change) seems particularly egregious... especially as on the outward leg, in CW, the time change and seat change is all magicked in onto the same flight... but then, there is no cabin change.

So... I think there is a case according to EU261. But you know what? I'm not going to be the one fighting for it, and the reason I'm not is that I'm happy with the redress options which I was given, seven months before my flight.

But I do agree, BA are taking the p1ss.

travelwithross

^ ^

Here Here. This is about the only post that makes any sense. I'm getting increasingly frustrated with the legal nonsense on this forum and the regulars arming in over their interpretations of polices and regulations.

The truth here is someone paid for F. Got put in J. And was told to bugger off. The whole system is rotten.

NWIFlyer

I couldn't agree more with your last paragraph. So, too, will pretty much everyone else here.

Unfortunately, the reality is that today's BA - and the courts, if it comes to it - will apply the law. BA's version of it is just often different to others ...

That's why, actually, legal opinion is important here. As someone said in another thread - sometimes you fight, sometimes you fold. Getting information that helps you make the right decision for the best gain (or possibly least loss) in any particular circumstance is an important component of FT, and that's not something personally I'd like to lose.

If you look at the OP's response to that advice thus far, I sense you may be doing those who have contributed with EC261 advice a disservice.

s0ssos

There is a difference. If the airline cancels their ticket and the flight still is the same, then basically they denied them boarding. It is simple enough to see that the airline did NOT cancel the flight. Just changed the plane which is not the same as cancelling the flight.

corporate-wage-slave

I think it's fair to point out that the OP raised the issue of EC261 explicitly is their first few sentences, and implicitly with their selection of the title for this thread.

Moreover we are collectively in a bit of a cleft stick here: sticking to core principles isn't going to get the OP very far (the OP has already tried that, plus there has been some advice on following up on that), so that is when you reach for the legal nonsense. Or vital consumer protection, depending on your point of view.

Now the further problem we have now is that before EC261 was around, BA and many of the main legacy airlines generally did a good job of looking after their customers, though there may be some rose tinted spectacles involved here. People weren't getting 600€ when their flight was delayed 3 hours, but BA certainly was more receptive to complaints then and doing the right thing, by the standards of the day. Low Cost Carriers came along and there were cases of Ryanair dumping 150 people late at night at some rustic airstrip in the middle of nowhere, and being told to find their own way home several hundred KMs away. The was unsustainable anyway (and Ryanair now has a good reputation on EC261) but EC261 has had the effect of substituting "doing the right thing" with the Regulation's wording, it is the main customer remediation template so very often all paths lead back to the legal nonsense.

Andriyko

Unless you were participating in the conversation, you can't state with any certainty that this what happened. BA has clear policies for situations like this - full refund, partial refund of the difference between the fare/Avios paid for the higher cabin and the lower cabin, rerouting to a different destination within 300 miles, re-booking on a different date or a different airline (for JV routes). The agent must have been completely clueless and out of it if they told the OP to 'bugger off'. And as much as I understand that it should not take this much effort to get what you want, there is always HUACA.

The problem here is not that BA is evil and that a passenger may buy a ticket in one class, travel in a different class, and be told that it's the same thing. The problem here is that the agent failed to apply the policies that his or her employer instructed him or her to apply. It is not BA's policy to re-book someone with an F ticket into J and say that no difference in fare is due and that J is as good as F.

BA did not just change the plane. The entire class of service was canceled either on a particular date or on that route in general. The flight cannot be the same if it no longer operates with the cabin that a passenger has a ticket for.

simpletastes

For the sake of debate, does this matter to the passenger? The effect is the same. BA can do whatever they want and it is often for commercial interests.