BA Calls on Border Force to cut immigration delays
Aug 26, 2017, 3:12 am
#61
Join Date: Aug 2006
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Oh dear. A couple of thoughts...
In my imagination, albeit with much self-incredulity, and despite all the apparent high tech, I had this image of someone sitting in room reading a newspaper and randomly hitting yes or no like monkeys with a dart board. Regrettably, this is much closer to the truth than I thought. I really don't know whether to laugh or cry, although in my extended imagination I also suspected that rather than a newspaper and dart board, the operatives were in an industrial sweatshop in India, China or Vietnam.
Regarding the database aspect being blamed for slowing things down, that is a technology problem, and if it really takes more than a second for those systems to come back with a response (and it usually takes longer than a person at a desk can achieve), then the project is an embarrassing failure, and that aspect needs fixing.
There was an old rule of thumb I used three decades ago when designing systems, and that was if the response time to a user interaction was over a second, then it was not fit for purpose and needed fixing. Unfortunately, non-functionals such as performance are all to often dismissed in the rush to deploy on time, and are frequently de-scoped as a result.
As some have already alluded to, the Iris system was far more accurate and speedy, so there's proof that it can be done. In view of the Iris experiences, it's hard to understand what the lax criteria for contract and sign off for the eGates might have been, and why they were deemed acceptable. It's difficult to resist pinning the tail on one of those public sector IT fiasco donkeys.
In my imagination, albeit with much self-incredulity, and despite all the apparent high tech, I had this image of someone sitting in room reading a newspaper and randomly hitting yes or no like monkeys with a dart board. Regrettably, this is much closer to the truth than I thought. I really don't know whether to laugh or cry, although in my extended imagination I also suspected that rather than a newspaper and dart board, the operatives were in an industrial sweatshop in India, China or Vietnam.
Regarding the database aspect being blamed for slowing things down, that is a technology problem, and if it really takes more than a second for those systems to come back with a response (and it usually takes longer than a person at a desk can achieve), then the project is an embarrassing failure, and that aspect needs fixing.
There was an old rule of thumb I used three decades ago when designing systems, and that was if the response time to a user interaction was over a second, then it was not fit for purpose and needed fixing. Unfortunately, non-functionals such as performance are all to often dismissed in the rush to deploy on time, and are frequently de-scoped as a result.
As some have already alluded to, the Iris system was far more accurate and speedy, so there's proof that it can be done. In view of the Iris experiences, it's hard to understand what the lax criteria for contract and sign off for the eGates might have been, and why they were deemed acceptable. It's difficult to resist pinning the tail on one of those public sector IT fiasco donkeys.
Aug 26, 2017, 3:39 am
#62
Join Date: Sep 2014
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That's interesting. I wonder if there is a db with all the lost & stolen IDs like there is for lost passports?
Aug 26, 2017, 5:11 am
#63
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As some have already alluded to, the Iris system was far more accurate and speedy, so there's proof that it can be done. In view of the Iris experiences, it's hard to understand what the lax criteria for contract and sign off for the eGates might have been, and why they were deemed acceptable. It's difficult to resist pinning the tail on one of those public sector IT fiasco donkeys.
It worked well for those able to use it, but it was not widely taken up in the UK, and as we were never in a position to persuade our EU partners to register their citizen's irises on our system, it was pretty much discriminatory in the European context. So into the dustbin it went.
Things have moved on. Were it still in use, the iris recognition bit would simply replace the facial recognition part of the current system of E-gates. The need for deeper and wider interrogation of data-bases would remain.
I'm not sure where you get the strangely dystopian view of the E-gate border.
It's efficient: for those who have mastered the use of the gates and who have no impediment to entry, the transaction time is seconds.
The line combers do a good job of managing a multi-server queue to use the gates while helping those who are unsure of the procedure.
The bothersome part is the wait, but this is not driven by the transaction time, raher by the number of gates available and the number of agents available to oversee them.
Aug 26, 2017, 5:31 am
#64
Join Date: Jan 2015
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Border Force officers have the power of arrest in relation to immigration offiences.
They also have the power of detention in non immigration issues whilst they await the attendance of a police officer.
Most of the work of a frontline immigration officer is actually checking paperwork and you do not need policeman to do that.
They also have the power of detention in non immigration issues whilst they await the attendance of a police officer.
Most of the work of a frontline immigration officer is actually checking paperwork and you do not need policeman to do that.
Aug 26, 2017, 5:40 am
#65
Join Date: Aug 2006
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My point is that the technology was there already, but the powers that be chose not to use it, and chose to go for a slower, less automated, and less efficient system that is dependent on an operator on the other side of a curtain in a smoke-and-mirrors operation.
I'd say it's reasonable that most people think of "facial recognition" as some smart automated system based on digital signal processing, not some chap watching a few screens and tossing a coin in real time.
If it didn't come up wih false negatives so frequently (which take a long time to "process" as such and hold up everyone behind), and they operated at least as quickly as a manual operator, then I'd be all for them, but that just isn't the experience.
If it's so difficult for people to use them, then that also needs fixing, but we are told most of the delay is doing database lookups. Both of those are fixable given that there's the right attitude to do so. Both of those could have been resolved in early pilot rollouts, from feedback of real use cases.
I fear we may have to agree to disagree: I just find the whole thing risible, taking steps backwards, the kind of compromise that only politicians could come up with.
I'd say it's reasonable that most people think of "facial recognition" as some smart automated system based on digital signal processing, not some chap watching a few screens and tossing a coin in real time.
If it didn't come up wih false negatives so frequently (which take a long time to "process" as such and hold up everyone behind), and they operated at least as quickly as a manual operator, then I'd be all for them, but that just isn't the experience.
If it's so difficult for people to use them, then that also needs fixing, but we are told most of the delay is doing database lookups. Both of those are fixable given that there's the right attitude to do so. Both of those could have been resolved in early pilot rollouts, from feedback of real use cases.
I fear we may have to agree to disagree: I just find the whole thing risible, taking steps backwards, the kind of compromise that only politicians could come up with.
Aug 26, 2017, 6:58 am
#66
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: UK
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Posts: 2,274
Oh dear!
Will I be shot for saying that all my interactions with e-gates in the UK, (and in Aus/NZ) have been positive.
I sort of resent no longer getting a stamp on my passport in Aus/NZ, but that's about it.
Will I be shot for saying that all my interactions with e-gates in the UK, (and in Aus/NZ) have been positive.
I sort of resent no longer getting a stamp on my passport in Aus/NZ, but that's about it.
Aug 26, 2017, 7:45 am
#67
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I flew on 24 from TXL with family kids 2 and 5 so family line.....
w had bus from stand to T5 and
1. extra control just after leave bus 8 Border Force present
2. then we reach proper control e-gates just 1min to pass but family line full....
they could use half of extra control Border Force officers to proceed line faster.....but
generally its IT possible to check how many families will be at LHR and speed up things
w had bus from stand to T5 and
1. extra control just after leave bus 8 Border Force present
2. then we reach proper control e-gates just 1min to pass but family line full....
they could use half of extra control Border Force officers to proceed line faster.....but
generally its IT possible to check how many families will be at LHR and speed up things
Aug 26, 2017, 1:13 pm
#70
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Aug 26, 2017, 1:15 pm
#71
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Aug 29, 2017, 3:33 am
#73
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 84
We shouldn't overlook that the people BA is concerned about are those who don't have access to the e-gates, and in that respect I've certainly seen some very long queues through the tensa barriers. When T5 works well it's straightforward, but there are certainly far too many occasions when it simply does not.
You're unlikely to refuse to return to your own country if you get held up, but for those who have a choice where they put their tourist pounds it's somewhat more critical that they get a good first impression of the UK. Certainly before I got Global Entry I'd actively try and avoid arriving at certain US airports - Atlanta was one where the staff were frequently belligerent and the queues obscene - and there's no question that the immigration message sent out by that same country now is very likely to put people off because they will anticipate long delays.
Last year, the BBC - a very global news agency - had reports about queuing times at many airports, particularly LHR. That will equally have sent an impression around the world that the UK wasn't a great place to visit because of its own immigration policies and lack of staff to implement them. This article will only reinforce that. BA is right to raise this as a concern, because it represents a very real threat to their profitable long haul operations.
You're unlikely to refuse to return to your own country if you get held up, but for those who have a choice where they put their tourist pounds it's somewhat more critical that they get a good first impression of the UK. Certainly before I got Global Entry I'd actively try and avoid arriving at certain US airports - Atlanta was one where the staff were frequently belligerent and the queues obscene - and there's no question that the immigration message sent out by that same country now is very likely to put people off because they will anticipate long delays.
Last year, the BBC - a very global news agency - had reports about queuing times at many airports, particularly LHR. That will equally have sent an impression around the world that the UK wasn't a great place to visit because of its own immigration policies and lack of staff to implement them. This article will only reinforce that. BA is right to raise this as a concern, because it represents a very real threat to their profitable long haul operations.
My more regular trips are IAH, DXB and KUL. At each of these locations I typically expect to queue for 1 hour as standard, if its less bonus, if it more engage headphones and wait!
In fact last time I came through DXB it took me an hour to clear immigration going outbound!
Aug 29, 2017, 4:04 am
#74
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Not sure you actually need any before applying. Once you get the ok you still need the interview which you may have to arrange for the US within 6 months.
However I think Calchas's point is, referring GE, if one doesn't travel to the US fairly often then it really wouldn't be worth spending the money and signing up.
However I think Calchas's point is, referring GE, if one doesn't travel to the US fairly often then it really wouldn't be worth spending the money and signing up.