Why is BA dragging their heels on the J product?
Jul 5, 2017, 9:15 am
#32
Join Date: May 2013
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Jul 5, 2017, 9:24 am
#33
Join Date: May 2014
Location: DMV
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Thing is, if AA felt that BA is relying on them to carry the load, they may reconsider the terms of the JV. I don't think we're anywhere near that point, but it is interesting to see such a lopsided product for OneWorld on the transatlantic nexus. The other alliances/partnerships serving the corridor have all updated their J products at least once since the last BA update.
Jul 5, 2017, 9:25 am
#34
Join Date: Sep 2013
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...................................
In many respects the current Premium Economy options are not a million miles away from Business Class seats a decade ago and likewise Business Class is not significantly different from the previous generations of First Cabins on most airlines - have our expectations of what to expect from a seat / cabin space just got higher?
But then again, it was ever thus in the world of leisure travel generally (and business too) ..... whether that means the standards & facilities onboard an aircraft, or when choosing a hotel.
On the one hand, air travel is not seen as being 'glamorous' in the way it once was. But with more players in the market (notably the development of innovative ME & Asian carriers) came the opportunity not just for people to fly in ever-greater numbers ; but for those able/willing to spend, the opportunity to enjoy product enhancements as carriers began to raise the bar - whether that means chauffeured car service, onboard showers (EK etc), superior food (QR), or high quality lounges (CX).
Jul 5, 2017, 9:29 am
#35
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Cumbria, UK
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And trying to drag it back on topic,
Isn't this partly a case of the cost of upgrades meaning this investment goes in long-term 'cycles' - BA set the standard, others caught up and surpassed BA, but now BA is coming back with a new business product that has the potential to raise the bar again on established European / North American carriers?
Jul 5, 2017, 9:30 am
#36
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6,349
By keeping the current high density Club World layout is there ever the possibility that BA could compete on price in business class should it choose to?
Those offering a more 'luxurious' less dense cabin would have to charge a higher price to maintain the same overall revenue per flight vs say BA who may have a higher density cabin? I fully appreciate that BA is often not the cheapest option currently but could it be should it want to be (and still operate very profitably) with the 8 abreast seating on most planes?
In many respects the current Premium Economy options are not a million miles away from Business Class seats a decade ago and likewise Business Class is not significantly different from the previous generations of First Cabins on most airlines - have our expectations of what to expect from a seat / cabin space just got higher?
Those offering a more 'luxurious' less dense cabin would have to charge a higher price to maintain the same overall revenue per flight vs say BA who may have a higher density cabin? I fully appreciate that BA is often not the cheapest option currently but could it be should it want to be (and still operate very profitably) with the 8 abreast seating on most planes?
In many respects the current Premium Economy options are not a million miles away from Business Class seats a decade ago and likewise Business Class is not significantly different from the previous generations of First Cabins on most airlines - have our expectations of what to expect from a seat / cabin space just got higher?
Jul 5, 2017, 9:30 am
#37
Join Date: Mar 2017
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Posts: 261
This is what I feel is often ignored in all of these J-class product comparisons. Yes, on a daytime flight QR's or CX's service is several steps higher, but on an overnight where I want to sleep on board I'll take CW over any of the other options I've flown on. In that respect, I think, it's the business traveller's business class - no service frills for luxury travellers, but it does the core part of the product (i.e. a bed on a plane) better than most.
Jul 5, 2017, 9:39 am
#38
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6,349
Also from a cash flow and finance perspective surely it's better to pay out on the drip for people to use other airline lounges than to shell out millions in one go for an upgrade?
Jul 5, 2017, 9:47 am
#39
Join Date: Jun 2016
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Also from a cash flow and finance perspective surely it's better to pay out on the drip for people to use other airline lounges than to shell out millions in one go for an upgrade?
Jul 5, 2017, 11:20 am
#40
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1) It's good enough.
2) In their big market, the transatlantic, the best competitor is a JV/profit-share partner.
2a) DL and UA are relative bit-players versus BA/AA.
3) Considering the whole product in TATL, a "good enough" seat + BA lounges/ground handling would (and did) make me choose BA versus "sorry, that beer is $8" that you'd get in an AAdmirals Club after an AA check-in backed up with domestic F flyers, upgrades, hand-it-out-like-Halloween-candy elites, and anyone who qualifies for a credit card.
2) In their big market, the transatlantic, the best competitor is a JV/profit-share partner.
2a) DL and UA are relative bit-players versus BA/AA.
3) Considering the whole product in TATL, a "good enough" seat + BA lounges/ground handling would (and did) make me choose BA versus "sorry, that beer is $8" that you'd get in an AAdmirals Club after an AA check-in backed up with domestic F flyers, upgrades, hand-it-out-like-Halloween-candy elites, and anyone who qualifies for a credit card.
Jul 5, 2017, 11:52 am
#41
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Speaking to DL, as I used to fly them a lot (pre-LHR, ex-AMS) the biggest issue with Delta and LHR is that Delta only uses one widebody aircraft for LHR (unless anything has changed recently) and that is the 767 with one of the worst "lie-flat" 1-2-1 configurations in the world. It's very narrow, and getting quite dated. The only exception are the Delta 757s which are 2-2 on routes like LHR-PHL. I actually prefer the Delta One product on the 757.
The Delta One product is much nicer on the A330s and 777s (and 747s, but that's only around for a few months). The Delta One Suites will be on the new A350s, and none of those I believe will be servicing LHR for a very long time.
In essence, Delta is totally not competitive in the LHR market, IMHO. Only redeeming factor is access to the Clubhouse ex-LHR; including Diamond Medallions on economy class tickets.
The Delta One product is much nicer on the A330s and 777s (and 747s, but that's only around for a few months). The Delta One Suites will be on the new A350s, and none of those I believe will be servicing LHR for a very long time.
In essence, Delta is totally not competitive in the LHR market, IMHO. Only redeeming factor is access to the Clubhouse ex-LHR; including Diamond Medallions on economy class tickets.
Jul 5, 2017, 11:53 am
#42
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Regarding OW - AA did not have flat beds in business class, and now both AA and BA do as required by the agreement. I don't understand why the product is lopsided. Putting aside the obvious thing that BA's seat and AA's seat (which one? btw
) are different, and not getting into the whole discussion about which one one prefers, as it's very subjective, both seats offer a flat bed. And that's what the JBA requires. I don't think any alliance offers identical seats in business class.
Jul 5, 2017, 12:42 pm
#43
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Why are they 'dragging their heels'? ...
I will cut BA some slack on this, although as noted on the GGL Event Thread, even some BA Execs believe they should have started earlier. It's not like popping down to a local shop and buying something for home.
- Suppliers need to be identified
- Contracts need to be let
- Funding needs to be approved
- Production lead-times aren't instant
- Engineering aspects need to validated
- Regulatory aspects need to be cleared
- Aircraft modification means aircraft out of service
- Procedures need to be amended across the board
I will cut BA some slack on this, although as noted on the GGL Event Thread, even some BA Execs believe they should have started earlier. It's not like popping down to a local shop and buying something for home.
Jul 5, 2017, 3:40 pm
#44
Join Date: May 2014
Location: DMV
Posts: 2,092
Other airlines introduced flat beds following BA. So, you may say that they were late into the whole flat beds game.
Regarding OW - AA did not have flat beds in business class, and now both AA and BA do as required by the agreement. I don't understand why the product is lopsided. Putting aside the obvious thing that BA's seat and AA's seat (which one? btw) are different, and not getting into the whole discussion about which one one prefers, as it's very subjective, both seats offer a flat bed. And that's what the JBA requires. I don't think any alliance offers identical seats in business class.
Regarding OW - AA did not have flat beds in business class, and now both AA and BA do as required by the agreement. I don't understand why the product is lopsided. Putting aside the obvious thing that BA's seat and AA's seat (which one? btw
) are different, and not getting into the whole discussion about which one one prefers, as it's very subjective, both seats offer a flat bed. And that's what the JBA requires. I don't think any alliance offers identical seats in business class.BA may hide behind that and rely on good old fortress LHR to bring in the dough, but they are losing business. I know because they're losing my business.
One thing to consider here is that while BA/AA dominate the ex-LHR TATL market (as they should given the setup), there is the matter of 2nd, 3rd and 4th tier markets which need transatlantic connectivity. For most of those pax it makes little difference if they connect via LHR, FRA, CDG or AMS. It's all in the game. And BA would be quite foolish to disregard the efforts by UA/LH/LX and DL/AF/KL on this front - who are by no means bit players in the general TATL market.
Jul 5, 2017, 4:50 pm
#45
Join Date: May 2007
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At this point the difference between AA and BA is more than just one of personal preference. AA is objectively better and the equation "flat bed = flat bed" has never been true.
BA may hide behind that and rely on good old fortress LHR to bring in the dough, but they are losing business. I know because they're losing my business.
One thing to consider here is that while BA/AA dominate the ex-LHR TATL market (as they should given the setup), there is the matter of 2nd, 3rd and 4th tier markets which need transatlantic connectivity. For most of those pax it makes little difference if they connect via LHR, FRA, CDG or AMS. It's all in the game. And BA would be quite foolish to disregard the efforts by UA/LH/LX and DL/AF/KL on this front - who are by no means bit players in the general TATL market.
BA may hide behind that and rely on good old fortress LHR to bring in the dough, but they are losing business. I know because they're losing my business.
One thing to consider here is that while BA/AA dominate the ex-LHR TATL market (as they should given the setup), there is the matter of 2nd, 3rd and 4th tier markets which need transatlantic connectivity. For most of those pax it makes little difference if they connect via LHR, FRA, CDG or AMS. It's all in the game. And BA would be quite foolish to disregard the efforts by UA/LH/LX and DL/AF/KL on this front - who are by no means bit players in the general TATL market.