Downgrade rights?
Apr 2, 2017, 12:39 pm
#61
Ambassador: Emirates Airlines
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 18,628
At check-in at CPT about 10 days ago, there was an elderly couple to my left who were getting rather agitated about being Downgraded from F to J. They were on a 2-4-1.
Now, here's the kicker.
On my right, there was a lady asking about the upgrade price from J to F - she seemed to know that there would be such an offer, and indeed the desk agent found her the price and the passenger was asked to go to another desk.
Seeing this, and being a 'respect your elders' sort of chap, I approached the elderly couple - who explained their issue to me.
I asked for a Supervisor to come over, explained the two contrasting situations, and went to Security.
Onboard, F was full (EF had shown 2 seats free before I checked in). The elderly couple were present, as was the lady who had paid to upgrade from J to F.
The elderly couple were very grateful and called me a 'charming young man' (to which my other-half responded saying that's why she married me), and the upgrade lady was perfectly content (albeit she had no idea who I was not what was happening).
A rather odd set of circumstances, but seeing this thread jogged my memory.
M
Now, here's the kicker.
On my right, there was a lady asking about the upgrade price from J to F - she seemed to know that there would be such an offer, and indeed the desk agent found her the price and the passenger was asked to go to another desk.
Seeing this, and being a 'respect your elders' sort of chap, I approached the elderly couple - who explained their issue to me.
I asked for a Supervisor to come over, explained the two contrasting situations, and went to Security.
Onboard, F was full (EF had shown 2 seats free before I checked in). The elderly couple were present, as was the lady who had paid to upgrade from J to F.
The elderly couple were very grateful and called me a 'charming young man' (to which my other-half responded saying that's why she married me), and the upgrade lady was perfectly content (albeit she had no idea who I was not what was happening).
A rather odd set of circumstances, but seeing this thread jogged my memory.
M
So, BA are openly downgrading Avios/2-4-1 passengers, and then taking paid upgrades? This is not acceptable.
Apr 2, 2017, 12:57 pm
#62
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: London, UK
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 2,288
Passengers A and B have purchased an avios ticket from CPT to LHR for 85,000 avios plus a voucher.
Passenger X wants to purchase a full fare F ticket from CPT to LHR at £4202 plus taxes.
Is £4,202 of revenue worth the downgrade cost of 63,750 avios (let's assume BA is right and the voucher is worth nil)? Of course it is. They'd be mad not to.
Apr 2, 2017, 1:07 pm
#63
Ambassador: Emirates Airlines
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 18,628
Why? It's rational behaviour.
Passengers A and B have purchased an avios ticket from CPT to LHR for 85,000 avios plus a voucher.
Passenger X wants to purchase a full fare F ticket from CPT to LHR at £4202 plus taxes.
Is £4,202 of revenue worth the downgrade cost of 63,750 avios (let's assume BA is right and the voucher is worth nil)? Of course it is. They'd be mad not to.
Passengers A and B have purchased an avios ticket from CPT to LHR for 85,000 avios plus a voucher.
Passenger X wants to purchase a full fare F ticket from CPT to LHR at £4202 plus taxes.
Is £4,202 of revenue worth the downgrade cost of 63,750 avios (let's assume BA is right and the voucher is worth nil)? Of course it is. They'd be mad not to.
Try reading my post that you quoted...
Apr 2, 2017, 1:17 pm
#64
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: London, UK
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 2,288
Let me rephrase. Why do you think this is "unacceptable"?
You seem to be making a moral judgment when this a economic decision, largely brought about by some dodgy law.
The only thing that is unusual in this case that all passengers were physically present at the same time.
People get bumped for those willing to pay more all the time. BA even advertise this (reservation assurance) as a benefit.
You seem to be making a moral judgment when this a economic decision, largely brought about by some dodgy law.
The only thing that is unusual in this case that all passengers were physically present at the same time.
People get bumped for those willing to pay more all the time. BA even advertise this (reservation assurance) as a benefit.
Apr 2, 2017, 2:43 pm
#65
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 96
https://www.caa.co.uk/Passengers/Res...re-downgraded/
"If you are downgraded, your airline must reimburse you within seven days. The amount you receive is calculated as a percentage of what you paid for your ticket, and depends on the length of your flight:
....
....
For long haul flights of more than 3,500km, you will receive 75% of the price of the flight."
If you are booked in First, and then downgraded, is there any difference in compensation if they are downgraded First -> Club World vs First -> World Traveller? I can't see anywhere that refers to a variance in compensation based on how many cabins worth of downgrade your are subjected to - apologies if I've missed something! If there is no difference, I'm surprised there's not more stories of F -> WT downgrades for those travelling on Amex/241 if BA's attitude is as callous as it sounds!
Apr 2, 2017, 3:06 pm
#66
Join Date: Oct 2005
Programs: VS, BA, HH Gold
Posts: 397
Not sure tbh, C-W-S may know, it'll be of interest to many I'm sure.
Raffles posted earlier that a couple on a 241 BOTH got downgraded from CW-->WT on a flight a couple of days ago.
The elderly couple going to CPT getting forcibly downgraded whilst upgrades are actively being peddled for their potential seats is breathtaking in its callousness, a new low?
Raffles posted earlier that a couple on a 241 BOTH got downgraded from CW-->WT on a flight a couple of days ago.
The elderly couple going to CPT getting forcibly downgraded whilst upgrades are actively being peddled for their potential seats is breathtaking in its callousness, a new low?
Apr 2, 2017, 3:16 pm
#67
FlyerTalk Evangelist
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Location: London
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I suspect that given the relatively rare number of downgrades we hear about here - my unscientific guess is we get a new/fresh story once a fortnight? Perhaps less often? - is that I doubt we'd get much clarity on your point. Very few on these cases would be 2-4-1. HfP seems to have accumulated a few more cases, however. Moreover the combination of imprecision and coyness/privacy means I have my doubts we would get to the heart of the matter.
One of these had a happy ending as the outstation (PVG) used its discretion and rebooked the CW passengers on VS.
Oddly I have not heard from anyone who was NOT on a 241 who has been downgraded recently. Arguably people wouldn't necessarily tell me, but still ....
Apparently local stations now have no discretion over upgrades. India provides a list of passengers who have been pre-selected for upgrades, should upgrades be needed. These are people that BA's IT believes may be tempted to fly a higher cabin for cash if they are given a chance to try it for free. This list trumps status, fare class, everything.
If there is an upgrade list provided by India which cannot be overridden locally it would not be a huge leap of logic to assume it also creates a downgrade list.
Apr 2, 2017, 3:21 pm
#68
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If you are booked in First, and then downgraded, is there any difference in compensation if they are downgraded First -> Club World vs First -> World Traveller? I can't see anywhere that refers to a variance in compensation based on how many cabins worth of downgrade your are subjected to - apologies if I've missed something! If there is no difference, I'm surprised there's not more stories of F -> WT downgrades for those travelling on Amex/241 if BA's attitude is as callous as it sounds!
The other case I saw this weekend was CW to WT. Why were 2 WTP pax not moved to WT and the CW pax moved to WTP?
One answer is that a 2-category downgrade minimises compensation anyway. Another possible answer is that there were no Avios travellers in WTP and such a downgrade would have involved a cash payment by BA, whilst downgrading the CW couple by 2 classes meant the cash outflow was £0.
Apr 2, 2017, 3:21 pm
#69
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Somewhere between SFO and LAX...FYI aka FAT
Programs: BAEC - back to lowly blue. Marriott - Lifetime Platinum
Posts: 466
Raffles posted earlier that a couple on a 241 BOTH got downgraded from CW-->WT on a flight a couple of days ago.
The elderly couple going to CPT getting forcibly downgraded whilst upgrades are actively being peddled for their potential seats is breathtaking in its callousness, a new low?
The elderly couple going to CPT getting forcibly downgraded whilst upgrades are actively being peddled for their potential seats is breathtaking in its callousness, a new low?
I understand the business decision of it all, never mind the people who had to reserve their "reward" flights almost a year in advance... I'm taking the advice here seriously.
Apr 2, 2017, 3:33 pm
#70
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: BOS
Programs: BA Silver, Mucci
Posts: 5,289
Obviously the EU261/2004 reimbursement / compensation is not high enough to stop this extremely shady practice. It would appear that the rate of downgrading those on 2-4-1's has increased since a court decided that the reimbursement amount should be 75% of the one way segment price instead of 75% of the total ticket price.
The amount of downgrade reimbursement has to be high enough to deter airlines from doing this. How about reimbursement of 100% of the total ticket price, plus the same amount in compensation, plus payment for any expenses or loss incurred by the downgraded passenger?
How sad that what was once a reputable company would behave in this way. It shows why EU261 is not only necessary but needs to become more draconian, and to be rigorously enforced.
The amount of downgrade reimbursement has to be high enough to deter airlines from doing this. How about reimbursement of 100% of the total ticket price, plus the same amount in compensation, plus payment for any expenses or loss incurred by the downgraded passenger?
How sad that what was once a reputable company would behave in this way. It shows why EU261 is not only necessary but needs to become more draconian, and to be rigorously enforced.
Apr 2, 2017, 3:40 pm
#71
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But if the airline downgrades someone who already has a reservation in a particular cabin while simultaneously offering someone else a paid upgrade to the same cabin, on the simple ground that the airline finds it will take more money from the paid upgrade than it will cost in compensation to the involuntary downgrade, it's hard to see how the airline would be using "best endeavours" or "reasonable endeavours" to provide the first passenger with a accommodation in the booked cabin. Indeed, it seems tantamount to acting in bad faith. And this is similar to the kinds of situation which have motivated the legal systems of some countries to make available awards of punitive (or "exemplary") damages.
So - although the armchair lawyers on FT might have a field day with the fine detail of this - in broad terms this is not necessarily only a moral judgment. It is behaviour of a kind that may well have legal consequences.
Apr 2, 2017, 3:41 pm
#72
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Posts: 44,649
I don't agree that the penalties are not severe enough ; EC261 provides levels of protection far in excess of what exists elsewhere
Look at the almost zero penalty when people get downgraded on domestic flights in the USA or elsewhere where there may just be a fare difference
75% of the sector cost downgraded is a pretty decent level of compensation
Look at the almost zero penalty when people get downgraded on domestic flights in the USA or elsewhere where there may just be a fare difference
75% of the sector cost downgraded is a pretty decent level of compensation
Apr 2, 2017, 3:43 pm
#73
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The same people who are shocked to find that BA would downgrade a 2-4-1 and sell an UG into the vacant seat created by the downgrade should realize that this is no different than most carriers' practice of selling its most valuable passengers a full fare ticket even on a sold out flight by simply overbooking by one more seat. This is done knowing that the one additional sale may well mean one more passenger is displaced. While it is debateable whether downgrade is better or worse than being denied boarding, the underlying practice is roughly the same.
As to whether a carrier can effectively downgrade for other than the EC 261/2004 refund --- it is not compensation --- the fact is that this is easily accomplished for exactly the reasons discussed in this thread. There are many people who have flexible schedules and may indeed wish to stay put for another day, perhaps more. If BA is prepared to rebook them a day or two later, perhaps pick up their hotel and maybe even rebook into a higher class of service on a less busy flight, there has been no downgrade.
The volunteer is happy, he has 1-2 more days somewhere he wishes to be, all paid for. BA is happy because it has shifted a costly situation into a dirt cheap situation (BA's negotiated rates for hotels where it does business are a fraction of what the public pays) and BA has avoided the cash outlay under EC 261/2004 and everybody gets to fly in their ticketed cabin.
As to whether a carrier can effectively downgrade for other than the EC 261/2004 refund --- it is not compensation --- the fact is that this is easily accomplished for exactly the reasons discussed in this thread. There are many people who have flexible schedules and may indeed wish to stay put for another day, perhaps more. If BA is prepared to rebook them a day or two later, perhaps pick up their hotel and maybe even rebook into a higher class of service on a less busy flight, there has been no downgrade.
The volunteer is happy, he has 1-2 more days somewhere he wishes to be, all paid for. BA is happy because it has shifted a costly situation into a dirt cheap situation (BA's negotiated rates for hotels where it does business are a fraction of what the public pays) and BA has avoided the cash outlay under EC 261/2004 and everybody gets to fly in their ticketed cabin.
Apr 2, 2017, 4:48 pm
#75
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: BOS
Programs: BA Silver, Mucci
Posts: 5,289
I don't agree that the penalties are not severe enough ; EC261 provides levels of protection far in excess of what exists elsewhere
Look at the almost zero penalty when people get downgraded on domestic flights in the USA or elsewhere where there may just be a fare difference
75% of the sector cost downgraded is a pretty decent level of compensation
Look at the almost zero penalty when people get downgraded on domestic flights in the USA or elsewhere where there may just be a fare difference
75% of the sector cost downgraded is a pretty decent level of compensation