orbitmic

I have - reasonably frequently actually. It does not mean that everyone is unhappy, but I have met a lot of people who are, and given the rationale of the complaints, my personal sense is that the changes that BA seems to want to implement will be well received by many.

corporate-wage-slave

I dislike the foot coffins a bit, though not massively so, I dislike the open side area more, compared to window CW, and I simply sleep better on CW - that probably is due to extensive training.

However whether I'm in the "small minority" or not is a bogus argument to my mind: unless there are some empirical studies, you're down a subjective line of argument easily terminated by "show me the evidence". The fact that BA have gone a different route is protected by patent. No, my equally subjective take on this is that overwhelmingly business long haul travellers are "one-off" travellers, there are remarkably few individuals who make more than 6 longhaul sectors per annum. BAEC Gold is one of the largest groups of its sort, and yet their profile is sub 4 longhaul business class trips on average per annum. And it's still only 100k people. Now one-off passengers are probably just somewhat pleased if not delighted with themselves to be in business class, on any airline, so "coffins" or CW screens screens or sitting rearwards (probably a greater issue) barely register. What may or may not be revealing is that BA have a bit more of the regular J travellers than AF, KLM, Lufthansa, but that I suspect is a combination of a good frequent flyer scheme, London, network, corporate deals and a CW product which is certainly tolerable to those who use it.

T8191

It's all about personal perspectives.

Foot Coffin. I've had a rummage through my flight experiences/TRs (on AA A330 mainly, in single window seats). It seems that my only adverse comment was my first encounter, after which I seem to have become accustomed/content with the arrangement. I never had any trouble sleeping. Indeed, it seems that it even provided my wife with a night's sleep on one occasion, which us very rare for her. However, as with all these things, it's a very personal taste.

CW Seat. I have developed a firm dislike of the current seat. My main objections are: Seat too close to the floor, and lack of handy shelf/storage space. OTOH, I do seem to manage to sleep in the seat, after managing the seat angle [slightly head raised] and inflating the headrest element. A bigger pillow will be a blessing!

Wow, that makes me feel quite 'elite' I think we made 14 last year!!!

FlyerTalker688786

Thanks for your input.

Not to dispute what you have said, I want to share one of my experience from last year. Last year I used my Avios for one of my elderly relative to fly between London and Florida in CW. The relative is what you would say 'one-off' traveller who normally travel at the most non-stop route and economy seats. I expect to hear the feedback as what a wonderful experience it was in CW. No, I was wrong. I hear only complaints from my relative after the journey. My poor relative swears he would never travel on BA again. He dislikes the bed (too low too uncomfortable), he dislike the lack of space and lack of storage places...

One-off travellers know if the product is good or not to their own taste. They would soon make their own mind whether it is up to their expectations. And in today's digital ages, people love comparison. This comparison starts with the search of the images of the products, reviews of the products online. Often, Flyertalk, airlinequality etc. would come to their search scope.

What is worse, the comparison does not stop here. It ends with the one-off traveller put up a selfie with the seats on their social media to make a complaint or praise.

For airlines, you could woo the FTs with cheap deals and miles and perks. It is more difficult to woo one-off travellers unless you have a perfect reputation and branding as well as price point. One-off traveller can be very savvy with 20 minutes spent on internet to search for reviews and pictures. In this regards, Ryanair is absolutely genius. You could ask 100 people randomly in the UK and Ireland, which airline is the cheapest? Without fail most would say Ryanair regardless they like the company or not. And in reality when these one-off travellers wants to travel, they would search Ryanair first as in their mind Ryanair is cheap. Few years ago, the same would happen to British Airways when people wants to travel 'better'. But the danger here is that BA would no longer be the first airline people have in mind when they want to 'travel better'. And all these negatives we are discussing here would not help BA in medium term. One-off passengers would soon to discover when they google BA Club World and then realise product with less complaints and dislikes exist...

simons1

Ultimately it's a trade off.

I'm ambivalent on the foot coffin, however I prefer it to the aisle seats in CW which are totally exposed and the lack of direct aisle access is about 10 years behind the times.

For me the privacy of J on the EK 380s is a preference especially in a window seat.

rockflyertalk

scillyisles

I believe hemschmall last posted in September 2017 - if he was part of the R+D project which was supposedly dropped then he may no longer be working at BA ......

orbitmic

My specific point was that the seat designs that use under-seat foot area are now very largely the fastest growing seat type in the international J market. There are several versions but they corner a very significant proportion of the market growth. Whilst you are right that the CW seat is protected by a patent, there are many other models that exist which are not and which airlines could choose as an alternative, all of which without much of a density loss - the JL seat which I like very much myself, the seats used by QR 777, TK, etc. J is a market segment where sleep comfort is crucial and my suggestion was that if a majority of passengers took a strong dislike to under-seat foot area, not so many airlines would choose it or indeed and indeed quite a few may abandon it in favour of other designs. At this stage, I think the only such example is QR but this has been to move to the Q Suite which is a far more exclusive and luxurious model.

I often read on FT that airline x must know what they are doing or else they would have done something else. I am always sceptical of this argument where it pertains to an initiative that others do not follow because it suggests that the result is probably a fine line. I do, however, believe in collective intelligence, so where there is a trend that becomes overwhelmingly followed within the industry, I tend to suspect that airlines are probably getting it right that it corresponds to the market reality at a given time, whether it is a solution that I personally quite like (e.g. the 1-2-1 seating in J that we are talking about, the overwhelming moves to flat beds in J and to galley plating), or initiatives that I personally dislike (the move to 10 across on 777 fleets which I hate but is now the arch-dominant model or paid checked luggage on short haul flights lowest fares, which all but a handful of airlines have now implemented).

This is why I am very much hoping that the switch that BA intends to make to new seats will hopefully be well-received on the whole.

T8191

I've just finished a discussion with the OH on various aspects of the discussion. These are her views ... i think she has enough mileage on BA and AA to have a reasonable perspective

BA CW [always window seat].
* Nowhere to put anything, including my handbag, in an accessible place. Little drawer not big enough for a decent-sized handbag. Carryon and handbag thus stowed inaccessibly in overhead. Seat space shared with Kindle and water bottle.

* Complexity of getting out of seat when in bed mode No armrests, so motor seat upright. Stow partial tray table. Retract footrest to enable egress. Place Kindle and water bottle on seat pending return. Repeat process in reverse, by which time so awake that sleep is no longer an option ... find Kindle and read for rest of flight.

* Confined space could be described as being on a stretcher on a Casevac flight

AA J [A330 in 1-2-1 config].
* Carry-on and handbag readily accessible under foot-socket. Side shelf for water and Kindle.

* Easy egress.

Note: AA A330 has a bottle holder built into the front corner of the seat.

Andriyko

But we do not know why airlines are opting for a certain design of a business class seat. I would not be so sure that it is because of their desire to give as much comfort to passengers as possible. Or because a particular design brings more business. For all we know, they may want a CW seat but can't get it. After all, the move to 10 across in economy was not caused by the desire to make the passengers' experience more enjoyable but by the desire to put in as many seats as possible and to use the floor space as efficiently as possible. The same reasons may apply to J seats. Again, I don't think most passengers care what kind of a seat they get. They all turn into a flat bed. And the majority of passengers marvel at the sheer fact that they can sleep on a bed during the flight.

BA.MF.CSM

I have heard the words ‘reverse herringbone’.

(from a trainer training the new Club World service)

we shall see...

BA.MF.CSM

Cap'n Benj

It will be quite disappointing if they end up with an identikit reverse herringbone like everyone else, whatever the benefits over CW.

I’m one who likes the feeling of space CW provides over actual space to place bottles, kindles, handbags etc, so I would be more than happy with an adaption of what is in place now, esp if it keeps up redemption seats, which is my prime way to travel business or higher

Flexible preferences

Yes, I rather liked this design, and am disappointed it looks like it isn't happening now:

Oaxaca

Even Messrs Walsh and Cruz are making public statements that the CW seat is an uncompetitive product (that statement made over a year ago in Walsh's case). However, the extraordinary amount of time BA takes to make and implement any such decision is staggering.

In business you can can be successful as an innovator (that ship has long since sailed at BA, it doesn't, and probably shouldn't, aspire to be anything more than mid-market) or as a fast follower. BA is a slow follower, which should be highly damaging to a business, but presumably the captive audience in some markets, along with the LHR hegemony and cost cutting, has sustained profitability.

The management statements indicate to me that they know it can't sustain much longer as the product falls ever further behind, yet they have spent years talking themselves into and out of change, and have still not made a decision. This thread alone is 19 months old and it was hardly the start of the new seat discussion. The current seat will be 13 years old by the time anything new arrives, and even then it will be more years before that new (for BA) seat is on more than a handful of aircraft.

Of course some people will prefer the existing seat, but as orbitmic and others pointed out, variants of 1-2-1 with aisle access for all, decently sized IFE screens and generally better personal and storage space, albeit some with enclosed areas for feet , are now the accepted standard, something that Walsh and Cruz have acknowledged. Change will come, but excruciatingly slowly, just look at the new CW catering / bedding rollout. That it can take more than 4 months to get new bedding onto more than one route beggars belief, at least to me.

T8191

Agreed! The pace of real progress, in whichever direction, is glacial.

Only trivia, like salt&pepper, seems to progress .... snd expire in an instant, It seems pathetic to my jaundiced eye. No coherent management anywhere as far as CUSTOMERS are concerned ... except on LHR-JFK, of course