Ziz

Just by way of update on this situation, BA has offered compensation. When I say offered, I mean his company asked and BA agreed. What I'm not sure about is whether it was EC261 compensation or the price difference between business and premium economy (what they ended up flying in).

UniformTango

Hi all

Really great pages, I can't find anything covering our situation, and it's the first time it's happened to us. I'd be mega greatful for any opinions/pointers before I draft my email to BA.

My wife and I and our two kids (7&6) were booked on 4 seats Clubworld LHR/MIA. Bookings were made using AVIOS and 2 companion vouchers. We don't have status so also had paid for allocated seats in advance.

Flight due to leave 13.50. Checked in online day before. Arrived at BA desk for bag drop at 11am, to be given standard letter saying due to operational reasons we couldn't go on that flight. Think it was oversold.

Offered night in hotel and some compensation with flights out In Club to MIA next day, or they offered to put us onto Virgin flight leaving 30 minutes earlier, also in Business (so Virgin Upper Class)

We opted for the latter. It was my youngest daughter's birthday treat so we wanted to go that day as planned. The guy at BA desk issues tickets and tells us to go to Virgin desk. We do so and are check in and drop bags. Virgin gives us 4 Boarding passes (confirming Upper Class seats) and through we go.

Having a (finally) relaxing time in Upper Class Lounge, sipping some quick fizz as our flight was due to be called soon. About an hour or so before departure, am approached by apologetic Virgin staff saying our tickets aren't valid and could we go to BA transfer desk to sort it.

I run down to BA transfer desk, after 20 minutes to-ing and fro-ing they say matter-of-factly that we should never have been put on the flight as they were redemption tickets. The original guy at the BA desk when we arrived should never have offered us them. Not our problem I say, exasperated, but they wouldn't budge.

I'm told we can still fly on Virgin but only in economy seats on Virgin. I was told it was also now getting a bit tight to decide if I wanted to get our bags off the plane - but they could try and do it if we wanted and fly us out next day...

My wife and kids were upstairs sipping champs looking forward to Upper Class. We also had first night hotel, car hire arranged - and as I said it was a special occasion. Talk about hopes dashed, raised, then dashed ever harder!!!

I was over a barrel so said we'd still fly Virgin but would obviously complain over what effectively was a 2-cabin downgrade, money wasted reserving seats on the original BA flight out, and a terrible experience.

I still have the original UpperClass boarding passes (with the UC seat numbers scribbled out and replaced with Econnomy seat numbers) and the Virgin tickets the BA guy originally issued us with as 'evidence'.

As it happened when we were boarding Virgin, the purser took pity on us - well on our sad looking girls - and found four seats in Premium Ecomony which helped sweeten the bitter pill. But that was luck rather than thanks to BA.

Question is, what can we claim for? The whole experience was simply awful (especially for our kids) and stressful.

Any thoughts gratefully received!! Thanks in advance.

NickB

Hello, UniformTango. It plainly wasn't BA's finest hour and I empathise.

This sounds like a straightforward downgrade within the meaning of Reg 261/2004, for which you should be entitled to 75% of the cost of the ticket. If these are redemption tickets, this means that you should be re-credited 75% of the miles you paid and reimbursed 75% of the cash component and taxes.

BA will in all likelihood want to pro-rate this so, if you bought a return ticket and were downgraded on the outward segment only, they will argue that the 75% should be based on half what you paid. Some take the view that BA is wrong and that it should be on the whole ticket in any event. There is no authoritative caselaw either way.

The fact that it is a double downgrade does not seem to make any difference, in that the Reg does not seem to distinguish between single, double or treble downgrades. What the CJEU would make of it is anybody's guess but I would probably anyone other the genuinely deeply committed to seek to test this out.

Dave Noble

Based on what is described, the 75% compensation does not seem to be due

Virgin Atlantic did not downgrade the passenger , but simply was unable to take the passengers due to no valid ticket

BA reissued the ticket into economy class and Virgin accommodated in economy class and indeed even upgraded the passenger

Given that the operating carrier simply took the passenger in the cabin ticketed, I do not see that VS owes EC261 compensation

BA will owe a refund of taxes and miles between original cabin booked and cabin travelled in

UKtravelbear

I agree with you on the technical / legal side re VS but that does not let BA off the hook.

OP only agreed to the VS flights because that was what BA offered and meant they could still start their holiday on time.

That a BA staffer mucked up does not absolve them of paying compensation.

If BA said 'we can put you on VS today but only in Y' and the OP agreed then no compensation would be due but that's not what happened.

I actually think it's a disgrace that BA feel it acceptable to say that they shouldn't have been offered VS UC because they were on redemptions. A ticket is a ticket is a ticket. And EU 261 doesn't make that distinction either.

NickB

I agree that VS did not downgrade the passenger. BA did, or to put it in the language of Article 10 of the Regulation, BA "placed the passenger in a class lower than that for which the ticket was purchased." The original ticket was in CW. They were put in a lower class, ergo there is a downgrade from the perspective of Reg 261/2004.

corporate-wage-slave

I would agree, and the other point to make at this juncture is that the Operational Airline here is BA, not Virgin, so the ticket certainly existed and they were even checked in with boarding passes. BA won't challenge the pro-rata 75% I suspect, but will challenge it if based on a return ticket, but will agree a last minute settlement with Non Disclosure if MCOL goes to the wire. Depends how strongly you feel, the MCOL bit would be hassle.

Dave Noble

Only if you conveniantly ignore certain words

If an operating air carrier places a passenger in a class lower than that for which the ticket was purchased, it shall within seven days, by the means provided for in Article 7(3), reimburse.

The operating carrier did not place the passenger in a lower class; I cannot see that EC261 can be claimed against the operating carrier. There is no EC261 provision covering other agents/carriers

corporate-wage-slave

Personally I think that's too literal an interpretation, though I see the point you are making. If you look at the legislation's core intent, which is a key factor here, if it looks like a downgrade, walks like a downgrade, quacks like a downgrade, then from a passenger perspective it is a downgrade. If it got to court in England or Wales, at any level, I am reasonably sure BA would not win and moreover I don't think BA would want to find out. There again it would not surprise me if this case does have to go to MCOL for resolution. It is definitely the situation that BA won't normally re-route redemptions on to other airlines, so they made a mistake there, but having done that with the agreement of the passenger, then they can't absolve themselves of the downgrade outcome. So I'm sticking to my original comment, this is a downgrade with apparently copious documentation and BA appear to me to be liable.

Dave Noble

I think that if a claim is made, BA will simply reply referring the passenger to the operating carrier in regards to reimbursement since the legislation explicitly states as such

With the transfer to VS, the ticket will have had to have been reissued and if it was not issued in business class, I would think that there would be a great difficulty in claiming compensation per EC261

It might work, but would not be staking anything on it.

If it went to court, I would suspect that BA would renounce the claim that it is not liable for a VS operated flight

NickB

But the operating carrier in question is the operating carrier for the flight that was cancelled and from which the pax is rerouted, not the operating carrier of the flight onto which the pax is rerouted, otherwise the article becomes completely and utterly nonsensical.

If BA cancels a flight and reroutes a passenger on AA in Y, it is plainly not AA which is responsible for compensating the passenger if the passenger was originally in CW. It can only be BA.

Same thing here: passenger was due to fly in CW on BA. BA reroutes the passenger onto VS in Y. Passenger is owed by BA (i.e. the operating carrier of the flight from which the pax is rerouted) Art 10 compensation.

If your interpretation was correct, this would mean that an airline could easily avoid Art 10 compensation obligation by simply rerouting on another carrier instead of itself. This is quite plainly untenable under any reasonable interpretation.

NickB

Do you? I really don't. I really need this one explained to me because, as I see it, it really is a completely nonsensical reading.

To me, the "operating carrier" can only be the operating carrier of the irrop'd flight for the Regulation to make any sense.

It is only if the pax had been properly rerouted on VS and VS of its own bat decided to downgrade the pax that VS would become the "operating carrier" for the purpose of Art 10.

This is not the situation here. Here, BA decided to place the pax in Y on VS because they could not accommodate the pax on the original flight, which had been cancelled.

Gshumway

The flight wasn't canceled, it was an IDB, OP said he thinks oversold flight. This was followed by a reroute in a lesser class than paid.

UniformTango, what day and what number was the flight?

710 77345

It makes perfect sense if you look at each word individually, and not in a sentence! I think the poster must have thought BA re-routed them on to Virgin in Upper Class, and Virgin then downgraded them to Economy. This wasn't the case; BA are indeed on the hook for the downgrade (and they should be embarrassed for how they treated their customer as he was travelling on Avios).

NickB

You are right. The fact that it was an IDB makes the treatment of the OP all the more shocking but makes no difference, though, on this issue: the end result in the same: downgrade compensation is due by BA as a result of their downgrading the passenger.
In addition, IDB compensation is due too. So it is €300 per person* plus 75% of the ticket which is due to the OP.

*: I assume that the OP arrived less than 4 hours later than originally planned and that the compensation can therefore be reduced by 50% to €300 instead of the standard €600 entitlement.