A far from First Class experience
Sep 12, 2014, 6:38 am
#1
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Join Date: Sep 2014
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A far from First Class experience
Hi All,
I'm new to Flyer Talk and am not normally a great one for online forums, but have heard good things about Flyertalk and felt a burning need to share a recent experience and seek views as to whether I am being unreasonable. My wife and I recently flew First Class from LHR to LAS and the outbound leg was a delight. We are used to flying Club, but have only flown First once before. I do no business travelling so all of my trips (and I am loyal to the BA brand) are either paid for personally or from accumulated Exec Miles. On our outbound trip, from the Concorde Lounge through to picking up our luggage the experience was everything you would expect from a First Class service.
Then came the return journey. A poor service throughout. On arriving at the check-in there were separate Club and First Class queues, but nobody monitoring them and we waited patiently. When a desk became free we went to it only to be told that it was closing and we had to re-join the queue. After we checked in and got through security we went to the lounge. An awful little place that is open to anyone willing to pay a few dollars at the door. Not great and a far from first class experience. We boarded the plane (no dedicated First class boarding, but smooth enough). The crew were very stressed as evidently there had been a flight cancelled earlier in the week and this plane was full with a lot of unhappy people. First Class was full and along came a woman with two small twins. She was obviously struggling, so I helped her get her luggage in the overhead cabin. It was only 10 minutes later that I realised that her husband was sitting behind her and had already taken his seat and watched me help her with her luggage! Within a few minutes the babies were crying and this lasted for the next 7 hours. The babies were in one of the first class beds with mum, while dad ignored the whole situation. I decided to try and sleep, but when the bed was made up, no pillows were available as they had all been given to the mum with the screaming babies. I only managed to get around an hour of sleep and as a result my body clock was pretty screwed up over the next few days. I responded to a BA text message asking 'how was your experience' and received a reply which pretty much said 'that's life'. I wrote a more detailed response to BA highlighting the issues around the lounge, check-in, unavailability of a pillow and asking about the policy of very young children in First and explaining that I believed it was one child per Adult seat. The response from BA was very much a 'Boo-Hoo, poor you, get over it and stop moaning'. I phoned Customer Relations and pointed out that this was a query about what steps would be taken to resolve issues raised and that I was not seeking compensation, but only seeking a response to help me decide which Carrier I use when I next use this route. I received a robotic reply of 'sorry we didn't meet your expectations'. She said that she was unable to give any information as to what they will do to improve the service. She also added that parents could do what they wanted with their children in First Class and it was at the parents discretion and that the one child per seat rule did not apply in that cabin. A crew member even took one child to the galley and attempted to pacify him while dad slept on. The attention given to trying to deal with the children impacted the whole service with food being delayed and a lack of overall attention.
I understand the difficulty in dealing with young children in such a small cabin, but my issue was with the lack of a first class experience from check-in onwards.
All anyone can ask for is consistency in a product. There was no price differential between outbound and return, so how can the experiences be so different and this deemed to be acceptable by BA?
I'm new to Flyer Talk and am not normally a great one for online forums, but have heard good things about Flyertalk and felt a burning need to share a recent experience and seek views as to whether I am being unreasonable. My wife and I recently flew First Class from LHR to LAS and the outbound leg was a delight. We are used to flying Club, but have only flown First once before. I do no business travelling so all of my trips (and I am loyal to the BA brand) are either paid for personally or from accumulated Exec Miles. On our outbound trip, from the Concorde Lounge through to picking up our luggage the experience was everything you would expect from a First Class service.
Then came the return journey. A poor service throughout. On arriving at the check-in there were separate Club and First Class queues, but nobody monitoring them and we waited patiently. When a desk became free we went to it only to be told that it was closing and we had to re-join the queue. After we checked in and got through security we went to the lounge. An awful little place that is open to anyone willing to pay a few dollars at the door. Not great and a far from first class experience. We boarded the plane (no dedicated First class boarding, but smooth enough). The crew were very stressed as evidently there had been a flight cancelled earlier in the week and this plane was full with a lot of unhappy people. First Class was full and along came a woman with two small twins. She was obviously struggling, so I helped her get her luggage in the overhead cabin. It was only 10 minutes later that I realised that her husband was sitting behind her and had already taken his seat and watched me help her with her luggage! Within a few minutes the babies were crying and this lasted for the next 7 hours. The babies were in one of the first class beds with mum, while dad ignored the whole situation. I decided to try and sleep, but when the bed was made up, no pillows were available as they had all been given to the mum with the screaming babies. I only managed to get around an hour of sleep and as a result my body clock was pretty screwed up over the next few days. I responded to a BA text message asking 'how was your experience' and received a reply which pretty much said 'that's life'. I wrote a more detailed response to BA highlighting the issues around the lounge, check-in, unavailability of a pillow and asking about the policy of very young children in First and explaining that I believed it was one child per Adult seat. The response from BA was very much a 'Boo-Hoo, poor you, get over it and stop moaning'. I phoned Customer Relations and pointed out that this was a query about what steps would be taken to resolve issues raised and that I was not seeking compensation, but only seeking a response to help me decide which Carrier I use when I next use this route. I received a robotic reply of 'sorry we didn't meet your expectations'. She said that she was unable to give any information as to what they will do to improve the service. She also added that parents could do what they wanted with their children in First Class and it was at the parents discretion and that the one child per seat rule did not apply in that cabin. A crew member even took one child to the galley and attempted to pacify him while dad slept on. The attention given to trying to deal with the children impacted the whole service with food being delayed and a lack of overall attention.
I understand the difficulty in dealing with young children in such a small cabin, but my issue was with the lack of a first class experience from check-in onwards.
All anyone can ask for is consistency in a product. There was no price differential between outbound and return, so how can the experiences be so different and this deemed to be acceptable by BA?
Sep 12, 2014, 8:56 am
#2
Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club, easyJet and Ryanair
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Your issues appear to be with the twins and their parents.
As for the LAS check-in and lounge experience, I'm afraid that is the norm.
As for the LAS check-in and lounge experience, I'm afraid that is the norm.
Sep 12, 2014, 9:01 am
#3
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I've had infants in F on both BA and Lufthansa. Unfortunately, you are at the mercy of the children and their minders. Some make an effort to keep disruption to a minimum. Some don't.
Sep 12, 2014, 9:05 am
#4
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Welcome GarryHampshireUK
And hello to you GarryHampshireUK, welcome to this the BA forum on Flyertalk. I am sorry to read of your bad experience on the return from LAS, but I hope that you will continue to participate in this board, it's only thanks to content such as yours that this resource can be useful to others. So welcome on board.
Now for my honest opinion! I think this may best be filed under "bad travel experience", just as your outbound can go into the other file.
The subject of LAS, the airport experience, of which I am very familiar (and a number of others too), is not new, not unique to BA and has been going on for 20 years to my personal experience.
It annoys me particularly because I'm not a leisure traveller there, I am there to work. But I've rationalised it and such is life. BA is one of the very few operators there that can offer any sort of lounge experience. Travel First on US or AA, you get zilch. I have been Global Entry and therefore TSA Pre Check for years. Until about a year ago I could not access TSA Pre Check at LAS since - alone in the USA - they barred Aliens / non residents from that channel. Despite the fact than my Global Entry card was issued in LAS! I haven't searched for other comments about LAS but it's a big busy airport and you just have to go with the flow there. There is actually very little BA can do about the management of that airport. It's not the worst one in the world, but BA's clout is not massive.
Babies in First, oh well, this happens. Yes you should have got some rest and I hope you approached the CSM/CSD to ask whether more could have been done to keep the babies quiet. One well respected CSD who posts in this forum has this mantra that "calm parents = calm babies" and so he's skilled at sorting this out. Still tricky mind, so all regular travellers in this forum (he says in some blinding stereotypical statement that is bound to have at least one exception) travel with noise cancelling headphones that can be worn asleep. Best thing since sliced bread.
It doesn't happen badly often, indeed I've had many good flights where the little darlings made not a squeak all flight, needed less treatment from the BA crew, so more time for this big baby. At the end of the day they are paseengers, human beings and we just need to learn to rub along together with grace and understanding. They have every right to be there.
So, without trying to sound too unsympathetic to you, just because you had this bad experience on the return doesn't mean every future BA flight will be like this - as indeed you already know from the outbound.
Best idea I can thing of right now? Book another flight to get over it!
Now for my honest opinion! I think this may best be filed under "bad travel experience", just as your outbound can go into the other file.
The subject of LAS, the airport experience, of which I am very familiar (and a number of others too), is not new, not unique to BA and has been going on for 20 years to my personal experience.
It annoys me particularly because I'm not a leisure traveller there, I am there to work. But I've rationalised it and such is life. BA is one of the very few operators there that can offer any sort of lounge experience. Travel First on US or AA, you get zilch. I have been Global Entry and therefore TSA Pre Check for years. Until about a year ago I could not access TSA Pre Check at LAS since - alone in the USA - they barred Aliens / non residents from that channel. Despite the fact than my Global Entry card was issued in LAS! I haven't searched for other comments about LAS but it's a big busy airport and you just have to go with the flow there. There is actually very little BA can do about the management of that airport. It's not the worst one in the world, but BA's clout is not massive.
Babies in First, oh well, this happens. Yes you should have got some rest and I hope you approached the CSM/CSD to ask whether more could have been done to keep the babies quiet. One well respected CSD who posts in this forum has this mantra that "calm parents = calm babies" and so he's skilled at sorting this out. Still tricky mind, so all regular travellers in this forum (he says in some blinding stereotypical statement that is bound to have at least one exception) travel with noise cancelling headphones that can be worn asleep. Best thing since sliced bread.
It doesn't happen badly often, indeed I've had many good flights where the little darlings made not a squeak all flight, needed less treatment from the BA crew, so more time for this big baby. At the end of the day they are paseengers, human beings and we just need to learn to rub along together with grace and understanding. They have every right to be there.
So, without trying to sound too unsympathetic to you, just because you had this bad experience on the return doesn't mean every future BA flight will be like this - as indeed you already know from the outbound.
Best idea I can thing of right now? Book another flight to get over it!
Sep 12, 2014, 9:12 am
#5
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Sep 12, 2014, 9:14 am
#6
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Compare the F ground experience at LAS with JFK for example. (ok, I appreciate I'm slightly comparing apples and oranges there, but you see what I mean).
Sep 12, 2014, 9:15 am
#7
Moderator: British Airways Executive Club
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It sounds like the check-in experience was poor. It's one of those annoying things that happen though.
I cannot comment on LAS lounge from my own experience as I have never been there, but it is run by a third party and not by BA. If they are to try to organise a specific, better BA lounge, I suspect it may be prohibitively expensive and so they probably have to use a third party lounge. It cannot be expected to be the same standard as a flagship lounge at LHR Terminal 5, so I don't think there is much that can be done about it. As for consistency, it's not a good idea to ask for consistency or it may become consistent at the LAS lounge level and not at the CCR level. You just cannot expect the same standard of lounge at an outpost.
I totally sympathise with your situation with noise on board. I have been deprived of sleep for up to 40 hours because of parents not managing their children well on board - I find this to be more noticeable in First, perhaps because of the cabin being small. In my cases (I have had it so often that I have now lost count) they weren't babies but older children behaving very badly and parents allowing them to do it. I ended up turning up to work completely exhausted and subsequently became ill a few times through exhaustion. You really do have my sympathy. I have even asked to be downgraded to WT to get away from the noise to get some sleep - failed, because WT was full! I have never had such a miserable flight as those on which I could not sleep due to noise.
However, unfortunately it's the nature of "public transport" that sometimes people who do not help with creating a "peaceful environment" are present there. BA do not restrict children/babies in First, even though I really wish they restricted noisy people regardless of class of service!
Personally, I think any carrier should charge the full fare for a premium seat regardless of the child's age - it's probably extra galling when someone who did not pay a normal fare for the cabin caused your experience to be more miserable.
As for two babies in a seat, I assume they got an infant fare by supposedly having one lap child each but what really happens during the flight is not really something BA can do much about.
And please don't ask for consistency! I would probably not last a year if they made it consistent with added noise
But on a serious note, really, it sounds like your return flight was ruined by other passengers. That really isn't BA's fault. Although ideally they should be able to manage the children situation and still provide decent service to passengers, but probably the noise level was such that it was disturbing the whole cabin by your description. I'd blame the father who was disinterested and inconsiderate towards others in the cabin by not helping with managing his children.
Still, running out of a pillow by giving it to another passenger is unacceptable. This is one valid complaint that BA really should apologise to you about. They have made an unpleasant situation even more unpleasant by the lack of pillow, although I sympathise with the crew for trying to manage the situation with whatever they can.
But I think this one, overall, is something you just have to live with. It could have happened on any carrier. I have had disruptive level of noise on so many carriers that I have lost count.
Please don't think that I am being unsympathetic, because I really do feel for you, and I too felt annoyed about not being able to sleep (especially I fly F for better sleep, not for food, drinks etc) because of disruptive fellow passengers. Sadly, we live in the world where too many people just don't think of the effects they may have on others...
I cannot comment on LAS lounge from my own experience as I have never been there, but it is run by a third party and not by BA. If they are to try to organise a specific, better BA lounge, I suspect it may be prohibitively expensive and so they probably have to use a third party lounge. It cannot be expected to be the same standard as a flagship lounge at LHR Terminal 5, so I don't think there is much that can be done about it. As for consistency, it's not a good idea to ask for consistency or it may become consistent at the LAS lounge level and not at the CCR level. You just cannot expect the same standard of lounge at an outpost.
I totally sympathise with your situation with noise on board. I have been deprived of sleep for up to 40 hours because of parents not managing their children well on board - I find this to be more noticeable in First, perhaps because of the cabin being small. In my cases (I have had it so often that I have now lost count) they weren't babies but older children behaving very badly and parents allowing them to do it. I ended up turning up to work completely exhausted and subsequently became ill a few times through exhaustion. You really do have my sympathy. I have even asked to be downgraded to WT to get away from the noise to get some sleep - failed, because WT was full! I have never had such a miserable flight as those on which I could not sleep due to noise.
However, unfortunately it's the nature of "public transport" that sometimes people who do not help with creating a "peaceful environment" are present there. BA do not restrict children/babies in First, even though I really wish they restricted noisy people regardless of class of service!
Personally, I think any carrier should charge the full fare for a premium seat regardless of the child's age - it's probably extra galling when someone who did not pay a normal fare for the cabin caused your experience to be more miserable.
As for two babies in a seat, I assume they got an infant fare by supposedly having one lap child each but what really happens during the flight is not really something BA can do much about.
And please don't ask for consistency! I would probably not last a year if they made it consistent with added noise
But on a serious note, really, it sounds like your return flight was ruined by other passengers. That really isn't BA's fault. Although ideally they should be able to manage the children situation and still provide decent service to passengers, but probably the noise level was such that it was disturbing the whole cabin by your description. I'd blame the father who was disinterested and inconsiderate towards others in the cabin by not helping with managing his children.
Still, running out of a pillow by giving it to another passenger is unacceptable. This is one valid complaint that BA really should apologise to you about. They have made an unpleasant situation even more unpleasant by the lack of pillow, although I sympathise with the crew for trying to manage the situation with whatever they can.
But I think this one, overall, is something you just have to live with. It could have happened on any carrier. I have had disruptive level of noise on so many carriers that I have lost count.
Please don't think that I am being unsympathetic, because I really do feel for you, and I too felt annoyed about not being able to sleep (especially I fly F for better sleep, not for food, drinks etc) because of disruptive fellow passengers. Sadly, we live in the world where too many people just don't think of the effects they may have on others...
Sep 12, 2014, 9:16 am
#8
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It seems like the main issue is with inconsiderate passengers rather than the actual product itself.
I would be mortified personally if my child caused a disturbance in any cabin let alone a premium one, but of course, we are all model parents here on FT and my child would NEVER act like that
As for the dad, if he was a kip I would have taken the opportunity to decorate him with well placed spilled drink (preferably red wine). On a night flight especially it's easy to execute and disappear into plebe class before anyone knows what the hell is going on.
Not that I have ever done this before, just saying like.....
Won't stop babies crying but it will make you feel a lot happier
Though the check in experience is unacceptable IMO. Closing the counter and making you start the queuing again, wholly unacceptable.
I would be mortified personally if my child caused a disturbance in any cabin let alone a premium one, but of course, we are all model parents here on FT and my child would NEVER act like that
As for the dad, if he was a kip I would have taken the opportunity to decorate him with well placed spilled drink (preferably red wine). On a night flight especially it's easy to execute and disappear into plebe class before anyone knows what the hell is going on.
Not that I have ever done this before, just saying like.....
Won't stop babies crying but it will make you feel a lot happier
Though the check in experience is unacceptable IMO. Closing the counter and making you start the queuing again, wholly unacceptable.
Sep 12, 2014, 9:18 am
#9
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,676
I'd agree the LAS checkin/lounge experience isn't good.
If I can boil out the complaints out of the post that BA can actually do something about:
1) You were asked to return to the check in queue when approaching the desk.
2) There wasn't a dedicated first boarding line - but it's not clear if priority boarding was observed
3) The flight was full
4) You didn't get a pillow
5) The crew spent time looking after the kids because the parents didn't.
6) BA have been unresponsive in their customer service
Of those - I think 1 and 3 are probably things you or BA can do nothing about.
I'm unclear on 2 about the issue - whether it was a complete lack of priority boarding or whether you expected first to be allowed on before everyone else (which BA doesn't do).
On the 4th issue - this appears to be the substantive point that can be actioned on.
The 5th issue is a choice. Either the parents (who weren't paying attention from your description) continue to ignore them and you get no rest from either child (but you do get your food on time!) or the crew take some time out to try and let you rest. I have a feeling the crew might have done their best in a difficult situation - they cannot step in and tell parents how to treat or deal with their child.
The 6th element is the bit I'm not sure on - given the first 5 problems I'm not sure what you hope BA will tell you in terms of preventing the problem in the future.
If I can boil out the complaints out of the post that BA can actually do something about:
1) You were asked to return to the check in queue when approaching the desk.
2) There wasn't a dedicated first boarding line - but it's not clear if priority boarding was observed
3) The flight was full
4) You didn't get a pillow
5) The crew spent time looking after the kids because the parents didn't.
6) BA have been unresponsive in their customer service
Of those - I think 1 and 3 are probably things you or BA can do nothing about.
I'm unclear on 2 about the issue - whether it was a complete lack of priority boarding or whether you expected first to be allowed on before everyone else (which BA doesn't do).
On the 4th issue - this appears to be the substantive point that can be actioned on.
The 5th issue is a choice. Either the parents (who weren't paying attention from your description) continue to ignore them and you get no rest from either child (but you do get your food on time!) or the crew take some time out to try and let you rest. I have a feeling the crew might have done their best in a difficult situation - they cannot step in and tell parents how to treat or deal with their child.
The 6th element is the bit I'm not sure on - given the first 5 problems I'm not sure what you hope BA will tell you in terms of preventing the problem in the future.
Sep 12, 2014, 9:22 am
#10
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I'm not so sure that the babies can be anywhere because there are a limited number of extra oxygen masks in planes. Also, surely for takeoff, landing, and during turbulence, an adult may only hold a single lap infant....at least that seems to be the rule used by other carriers.
IMO the OP could have focused on the lack of pillows to use in FC. It was objectively wrong for the FAs to give his/her pillow to another passenger, regardless of the situation with the kids. Perhaps raising this issue with the cabin crew would have improved their overall service toward the OP.
IMO the OP could have focused on the lack of pillows to use in FC. It was objectively wrong for the FAs to give his/her pillow to another passenger, regardless of the situation with the kids. Perhaps raising this issue with the cabin crew would have improved their overall service toward the OP.
Sep 12, 2014, 9:24 am
#11
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,676
While I do agree in principle with your point, BA could theoretically have a private area for F check-in only, and a dedicated F lounge (or indeed a dedicated BA lounge). They don't because it doesn't make any financial sense.
Compare the F ground experience at LAS with JFK for example. (ok, I appreciate I'm slightly comparing apples and oranges there, but you see what I mean).
Compare the F ground experience at LAS with JFK for example. (ok, I appreciate I'm slightly comparing apples and oranges there, but you see what I mean).
126 potential F customers at JFK. 14 at LAS. No financial sense whatsoever in putting a more dedicated F experience in place.
Sep 12, 2014, 9:36 am
#12
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The OP would be best off limiting his complaint to this item. It will probably generate an apology and a few Avios. Complicating it with the other items (some of which aren't relevant) will weaken the case.
Probably best to accept that some flight experiences are better than others and just move on.
Probably best to accept that some flight experiences are better than others and just move on.
Sep 12, 2014, 9:41 am
#13
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,225
I have to say I think having your pillows given away to another passenger on a night flight - so that they end up with more than the allotted two per seat, in First Class, is totally unacceptable. It's just downright wrong that the pillows meant for you (and the seat you paid for) were given to another passenger. I'd have been absolutely livid. It beggers belief that they would give them away to another passenger knowing someone else would have to do without.
Sep 12, 2014, 9:53 am
#14
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I will comment, however, that it is typical for lounges in the United States to be pay-for-entry. Either you buy a membership or you buy a day pass or you have an expensive credit card that includes membership in the giant annual fee. Large hub airports like LAX or ORD have first class dedicated lounges, but I would be really surprised if LAS has one.
Go over to the American Aadvantage forum if you want to hear people whine about the crumminess of the Admirals Club compared to lounges in non-USA airports.
As for the babies, you can't blame BA for the behavior of the kids and of their lazy father.
Sep 12, 2014, 9:56 am
#15
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IMO the OP could have focused on the lack of pillows to use in FC. It was objectively wrong for the FAs to give his/her pillow to another passenger, regardless of the situation with the kids. Perhaps raising this issue with the cabin crew would have improved their overall service toward the OP.
Seriously though, I can't imagine how complaining to the CC that a small child had their pillow would in anyway improve the situation. Quite the opposite surely, if the 'father' was disinterested then any sort of assistance from a third party would illicit a very favorable response from CC. In first one would especially hope so.