The 'S' approach to LHR
Jun 29, 2012, 12:52 pm
#16
Join Date: Nov 2011
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It's interesting to see the differences in watches, some do it noticeably more often than others. Yes, I should have made the distinction that the non-TEAM scenario takes place very infrequently when it's busy, and there is one controller handling the northern two stacks, and one the southern two stacks (with possibly a third in a supporting role) I've certainly seen it happen when it's quiet and bandboxed (when multiple sectors are combined on to one position).
Jun 29, 2012, 1:31 pm
#17
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 387
Did you do an approach rating? If you did come down sometime and we can arrange a go in the sim for you to try it (as long as CK and I can have a go in the tower sim in return!)
Jun 29, 2012, 1:31 pm
#18
Join Date: Jan 2011
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If LHR one day became a full, constant mixed-mode operation, how would this affect the procedures for approaches (and indeed departures) which are currently established?
Jun 29, 2012, 1:38 pm
#19
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Jun 29, 2012, 1:38 pm
#20
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Jun 29, 2012, 2:14 pm
#21
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Aug 5, 2019, 8:55 am
#22
Join Date: Aug 2019
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Varying flight paths from Lambourne Stack
I have a question that I'd be really grateful for an answer to.
Hampstead Garden Suburb seems to get more planes overhead in the summer - is that right or just my perception?
I have noticed on FlightRadar24 that most of the planes above the area come from the Lambourne stack. Sometimes planes come as far as HGS in a big S, trombone flight path, whereas sometimes the S is smaller and they turn off earlier towards Haringey and Waltham Forest towards the east. Why do ATC sometimes utilise the larger S that affects areas further west rather than the shorter S that affects the areas further east?
Hampstead Garden Suburb seems to get more planes overhead in the summer - is that right or just my perception?
I have noticed on FlightRadar24 that most of the planes above the area come from the Lambourne stack. Sometimes planes come as far as HGS in a big S, trombone flight path, whereas sometimes the S is smaller and they turn off earlier towards Haringey and Waltham Forest towards the east. Why do ATC sometimes utilise the larger S that affects areas further west rather than the shorter S that affects the areas further east?
Last edited by michaeljplee; Aug 7, 2019 at 4:49 am
Aug 5, 2019, 9:03 am
#23
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: LHR Air Traffic Control
Programs: BAEC Silver
Posts: 875
There’s no set procedure or change in operating for Winter v Summer periods, it’s all down to the weather and position of other traffic at that precise point in time.
If if you have a few spare hours, have a play with the X-Plane tracker on Heathrow.com/can set a location and load up historic flight paths from 2012 onwards (or maybe even earlier?), and compare to this year.
If if you have a few spare hours, have a play with the X-Plane tracker on Heathrow.com/can set a location and load up historic flight paths from 2012 onwards (or maybe even earlier?), and compare to this year.
Aug 5, 2019, 10:08 am
#24
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Welcome to Flyertalk, and welcome to the BA forum michaeljplee, it's good to see you here, and I hope that you will continue to be active here. Welcome on board.
It looks like you have the word from the horse's mouth, if that isn't considered too derogatory! My own take on this is that what I call the Wembley shortcut (unencumbered as I am by some of the high tech avgeek jargon) is a bit more frequent than it used to be, and going umpteen times around Hemel Hempstead is now quite rare. I've have had I think about 3 Wembley shortcuts this year, and last year only one.
It looks like you have the word from the horse's mouth, if that isn't considered too derogatory! My own take on this is that what I call the Wembley shortcut (unencumbered as I am by some of the high tech avgeek jargon) is a bit more frequent than it used to be, and going umpteen times around Hemel Hempstead is now quite rare. I've have had I think about 3 Wembley shortcuts this year, and last year only one.
Aug 5, 2019, 10:19 am
#25
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ATCOS - Am I right in saying that there was a project ongoing to start managing speed, particularly for longhaul TATL flights, much earlier in the process, so that aircraft are already presenting into the airspace slightly more evenly spaced etc. Seem to recall reading something about this a while back. Possibly in the context of yet another of those things it's going to be harder to do on a co-ordinated basis if we Brexit.
Just curious.
Just curious.
Aug 5, 2019, 10:43 am
#27
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,065
ATCOS - Am I right in saying that there was a project ongoing to start managing speed, particularly for longhaul TATL flights, much earlier in the process, so that aircraft are already presenting into the airspace slightly more evenly spaced etc. Seem to recall reading something about this a while back. Possibly in the context of yet another of those things it's going to be harder to do on a co-ordinated basis if we Brexit.
Just curious.
Just curious.
Aug 5, 2019, 11:06 am
#28
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: LHR Air Traffic Control
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Posts: 875
The controller who brings you off the stack will ideally wants you just approaching the holding fix just at the right moment for you to fly the fewest track miles to slot in previous aircraft in the sequence (shortest S route). However, just down to luck your aircraft might have just turned away from that fix, so there are two options at this point....fly a circle back to the fix (2 minutes) then proceed as instructed, or fly the whole holding pattern again (4minutes). Neither of these is A Good Thing (tm), so what the controller will do is actually bring your aircraft off the stack earlier than ‘ideal’, but planning on a longer S route to give her/him the flexibility of further lengthening, or shortening, the route to put you in the correct position. It’s generally easier to plan a longer route and then cut the corners on the ‘bends’ of the S than plan a shorter route then have to work to lengthen it.
Yes, sometimes more aircraft in the system means more are ‘off’ the stack and flying those S routes, but there are many factors to take into account.
Aug 5, 2019, 11:26 am
#29
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I initially thought this thread might have been about making sure when coming by car into LHR T5 on Monday mornings to make sure that you go via T3 rather than straight from the highway.
Aug 5, 2019, 11:47 am
#30
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 387
The length of the tromboning is primarily simply dependent on the traffic offering and where the various aircraft that are following each other are in relation to each other. There are natural ebbs and flows, sometimes longer, sometimes shorter, sometimes straight in.
Ultimately approach has a defined volume of airspace they can use for vectoring, on occasion they may choose to use it to the maximum. As long as there’s still significant human input it will never be an exact science of identical tracks, rather more a touch of artistry with subtly differing brush strokes achieving the required consistent result of accurate minimum required spacing on the final approach.
Ultimately approach has a defined volume of airspace they can use for vectoring, on occasion they may choose to use it to the maximum. As long as there’s still significant human input it will never be an exact science of identical tracks, rather more a touch of artistry with subtly differing brush strokes achieving the required consistent result of accurate minimum required spacing on the final approach.