the_traveler

I know the CZ runs late, but I figured that 10 hours is enough! That's why I chose westbound, instead of eastbound, which only gives about 4 1/2 hours. Especially when you consider it's the Coast Starlate!
The trip is in mid July, so hopefully the bridge will be repaired by then.

TRSTACIE

Traveler,

I just searched for july trips between bhm to pdx and it gives no options for CZ. How were you able to book this route. Only options I see are on the EB.


On another note, I am about to book a reward trip from Den to SAC, but was wondering if the equipment on the CZ has been refurbished or is up to par with say the EB? The family and I took a trip in OCT 06 and the sleeper car we were in was old and dilapitated. I would like to ride on a up to date train. The train for some reason was dirty. We sat in the observation car for awhile but the widows were dirty along with the car itself. Is there no one to clean these at service stops? I need to burn some miles so was looking for advice for trips from Denver. I have about 60,000 miles to use.

One last thing. I did find one long route that travels on a smaller award. It was from DEN to New Orleans.

Thanks

jackal

OK, I'm sorry for the OT post here, but I have to know: where do you people get these AGR points? I can't figure it out.

AGR doesn't participate in enough special promos (i.e. phone company partnerships and the like) to get lots of miles that way, and you certainly don't get tons of points for traveling by train (I spent as much on a first-class one-way trip on Acela last year as I would on half of a coast-to-coast round-trip ticket, and even with the bonus miles promo they were running at the beginning of last year, I think I only got 750 miles--whatever it was, it was much less than I would have gotten on a cross-country trip on an airline). And with the end of the MBNA/BofA AGR credit card, that won't be an option in the future, and with the $1=1 mile rate of a credit card (or whatever it was, even if it was $1=2 miles), you can't really rack up THAT many miles unless you're a REALLY heavy spender. And now that you can't transfer CO miles or whatever into or out of AGR, the options for earning AGR miles are really limited.

There must be something I'm missing...

Edit: I should add that I've managed to amass 250,000 UA miles and 175,000 AS miles (all right, I admit I'm one of those bad people that didn't earn all of them butt-in-the-seat, although three trips to Europe and a trip to Australia helped--hey, give me a break--I'm a poor, working college student). But most of the ways I've figured out how to collect these airline miles aren't really applicable to AGR. (If I could figure it out, I'd jump wholeheartedly into the program, as since people have mentioned here, it's a great return for the points--although I'm planning on having international first-class fun with my airline miles, and that can be worth some serious bucks...)

soitgoes

I know I'm not the biggest account holder on this board, but they do participate in promos. I got, for example, 10K points for signing up for 2 months of Earthlink dialup.

They are going to release a new card--they've already said that. And 1 mile-1 point is sort of standard.

That's news to me. Midwest and Continental both offer bidirectional transfers. Starwood offers transfers of Starpoints in to AGR.

I'm not quite sure I understand what you're driving at. There are plenty of ways to earn AGR points. The one thing lacking--perhaps--are hefty credit card signup bonuses. But, then again, the Midwest, Continental, and Starwood transfer options reduce the impact of that.

Furthermore, points from Amtrak earning add up quickly for regular users of the Acela Express between 'select city pairs'. Plus there are sometimes double or triple point promos.

jackal

OK, I was posting in a bit of a haste, and I didn't write a very well-researched or well-thought-out comment.

I've not spent as much time familiarizing myself with AGR as I have with UA Mileage Plus or AS Mileage Plan, but I haven't noticed AGR being as all-pervasive in non-carrier-related mileage-earning opportunies as most airline programs. (This may be partially due to my location: AS is in about everything you can get up here, from groceries to phone/Internet service, and UA is just very, er, generous with their miles--25,000 miles for credit cards, 50,000 miles for an Ameniti membership (yes, I know Ameniti is worthless), 20,000 miles for spending $125 per month for six months with Rewards Network restaurants...)

So, I guess that just because I don't know about AGR's mileage-earning opportunities doesn't mean they don't exist (obviously). So I apologize for assuming they don't.

Right--the new Juniper card. Let's hope it's a good product--I've never heard of Juniper Bank. And I couldn't remember off the top of my head if it was 1 or 2 miles per dollar with the MBNA/BofA card (and I was getting ready to shut my laptop and leave, so I didn't look it up). I know 1=1 is standard, but Amtrak's not an airline, and I thought there was some program out there where $1=2 miles/points (and the points were correspondingly worth half as much). Upon further reflection, I must have been confusing AGR with Diners Club Rewards--IIRC, the DC card gives (or gave, rather, whatever their current state may be) 2 points per dollar, but when transferring points out for miles, 2 points equaled 1 mile.

I thought I read recently that AGR was closing down those transfer options (or limiting them in some way). I must be wrong, because after looking around, they're still there. Maybe I was reading recently someone's comment about AGR suddenly and without warning stranding people who had planned to transfer miles to/from United, which did stop being a partner with AGR. I still thought I read somewhere about the Continental deal ending, but again, I must be wrong.

Amtrak might reward frequent commuters, but I'm still not convinced it's as lucrative a program as, say, UA's. My one-way (first-class) Acela trip between BOS and NYP was fairly expensive--close to $150. Let me try a little thought experiment and compare this to an airline's program. A round trip on Acela would have been $300 and fetched me 1500 miles. Now, it's not hard to find (if you're flexible) an airfare from here to the East Coast round trip for under $500 (I got mine for $350). In the process, I earned 8,160 miles. So, for 1.16 times the price, I received 5.5 times as many miles, or 4.74 times better return.

That's the upper extreme (well, BOS-WAS would be even worse). Of course, if you travel between, say, BOS and PVD on Acela (a good fare looks to be about $26 one way, translating to 19.2 miles per dollar--a VERY good return). But if you don't happen to live on the NEC and primarily use Amtrak for long-distance travel or on non-Acela commuter corridors (or use the Regional service, on which the $12 Regional fare between BOS and PVD would only get you a measly 26 points--this is much closer to the type of activity I'd see on the Pacific Surfliner, making it hard to build up miles even if I took it two or three times a week), I still think it's harder to rack up tens of thousands of miles without a LOT of effort. Then again, maybe Amtrak/AGR want to focus on rewarding NEC customers, since that's their big (and only) semi-close-to-profitable line.

Looking at the long-distance side of things, I just priced LAX-NYP. $480 round trip looks to be in the ballpark, meaning the trip would net you 960 miles. I don't have a figure for a similar distance by air (my [ANC-]LAX-DCA flight was courtesy of an AS bump voucher, so I didn't earn miles and can't look it up--although somewhere buried in my bookmarks is a site that lets you calculate how many miles you'll get on a given routing), but I'll (conservatively?) estimate 2,000 miles. So, a round-trip flight will get you 4,000 miles, or more than four times as many miles as the Amtrak trip will get--and you'll probably pay half as much for the ticket, meaning you'll get in the neighborhood of 8 times the miles per dollar spent.

I may be off on my numbers, but my point is: in most cases, it's far easier to amass miles on an airline than on Amtrak. And if you look at the value of the mileage, it's not substantially more on Amtrak--as someone mentioned here, a 50,000 ticket got them a $1200 cross-country sleeper. 50,000 UA miles (which are, as I've just calculated, between 4 and 8 times easier to earn) will get you two domestic saver tickets, each of which could be worth upwards of the same amount as that sleeper (in a worst-case scenario). So, it's late and my brain isn't functioning well, but as I see it, an airline mile could--in a best-case scenario--be in the area of sixteen times more valuable than an AGR mile. (Don't flame me if my math is bad here--I'll probably wake up in the middle of the night and realize I was way off...)

For someone like me, the big saving grace of AGR is probably the ability to transfer CO miles into it. Assuming that partnership is stable and won't end anytime soon, I would feel comfortable using CO earning miles in the manner I usually earn airline miles (getting a CO MasterCard, flying back East, etc.) and then transferring and using those miles on a sleeper. (That's sort of my mantra when it comes to FF programs--I will only use the miles to purchase something that would normally be completely out of my league, such as first-class tickets to Australia or a cross-country sleeper car.)

All right, enough for the night.

(After writing all of this, I realized that AGR refers to its miles as "points," but I'm about to hit the sack and didn't have the energy to go back and change all the references.)

the_traveler

When I first called about the the trip, the agent first suggested the EB, but I asked for the CZ. The agent said that the EB was more scenic. I said that I would be returning on it. He said OK, and booked me on the CZ - per my request! ^


Since the Superliner cars are about 30 years old , you may encounter an old car! Many have been refurbished, but some have not been for years. I too have bee on some dirty trains, but (luckily) most are not!

The cars may get some minor cosmetic cleaning at stops, but with most extended stops of only 15-30 minutes, not much can be done in that time. Plus Amtrak does not have the manpower to station someone in a place like Denver to clean the whole train for the 30 minutes or an hour that the 1 train a day is there.

They try to clean the cars at the endpoints, but if the train is scheduled to arrive at (say) 9 AM, but does not arrive until 3 PM, and that same car has to go out on tonight's train at 5 PM - that doesn't leave much time! They may keep many extra cars in a place like Chicago, but I doubt there are many extra cars sitting available in New Orleans or San Antonio!

Luckily for you, Denver is a division point for the 3 zones!

Thus, a trip going west (like DEN-PDX) is 1 zone. Also, a trip going east (like DEN-CHI) is also 1 zone! A trip to the east coast (like DEN-NYP or DEN-WAS) would be 2 zones! However, because of the only routing allowed, DEN-BHM would be 1 zone - even though you must connect in WAS! (You could connect in NOL - but that would require an overnight stay - at your expense! I don't even think they would allow it.) Personally, I'd rather be on a train (in a sleeper ^) for 2 extra nights for the same amount of points!

Also, don't forget that a sleeper award is the same amount of points for 1 pax or 2 pax! And all meals are included for both pax! ^

ByeByeDelta

"Notoriously late." That sounds terrible. Why not tout the perfect performance record it has? The California Zephyr has operated late 100% of the time since the end of August. Even the Sunset Limited can't match that!

AlanB

The bridge should be done long before then. The current UP plan is to divert some materials from another project to Sacramento. With good weather and a bit of luck, they hope to have one of the two tracks restored by April 1st. The second track will probably follow within another month.

AlanB

About half the fleet of Superliners, commonly called Superliner I's, are about 28 years old having been built in 1979. The other half, Superliner II, was built in 1995. When it comes to the sleepers, I believe that about 42 or 43 of the 59 still in service, have been rebuilt. However first priority for those cars is the Empire Builder. Once it's needs have been met, the other cars can end up on any route, so that odds of your seeing one are probably at best fair. Especially with 46 Superliner II sleepers also plying the rails.

Even if they did have the money for the man-power, it's not exactly easy to clean the windows on a car that is twice the height of a man, especially when the windows curve into the roof. It can be done, but it's not easy, especially as you noted when most station stops don't last for more than 5 minutes.

Yet another problem is that at many station stops, only one side of the train is on a platform. On the other side there may well be an active track with freight trains rolling by. Trying to clean that side could easily jeopardize the worker's life.

Regarding TRSTACIE's complaint about being dirty inside that could be that the train didn't get properly cleaned at the end point, or it could be that the crew isn't doing their job, or it could be that the passengers have been exceptionally messy. For example, the onboard crew does not have access to a vacuum cleaner should someone decide to throw peanuts on the floor. So picking up 100 peanuts would be no easy task on a moving train.

AlanB

Well I obviously can't speak for everyone, but here's a bit of a breakdown on where my points have come from. First for a starting point, I have as of this past month redemed 215,000 AGR points for trips. The last redemption knocked my account down to less than 1,000 AGR points.

Of that total, 20,000 points came about because I've always been either a Select member since it first came out or a Select Plus member since it first was introduced. The 25% bonus when I was Select, and now the 50% bonus as a Select Plus member helps a bit as you can see.

Next, I've been a loyal Hilton Honors Double Dipper, so Hilton has graciously contributed 36,525 points to my AGR account. The rest of my points have come from rail travel, many Acela/Metroliner rides between the matched city pairs, and taking full advantage of any bonus programs over the years.

If one can squeeze in a few rides on Acela in FC during double or triple point promos, the points add up fast.

Not one of my points came from the AGR credit card, since I have never signed up for it.

AlanB

I haven't fully studied the rest of your math, but this one is definately wrong. Boston to Providence is not one of the city pairs, so one would not earn 500 points for a BC ride or 750 for a FC ride. One would only get 2 points per dollar spent for this ride normally. Of course AGR has the 100 point minimum, so instead of 52 points you'd actually get 100 based upon a fare of $26.

Again, the $50/100 AGR minimum would apply in this case, so you would earn 100 AGR points for that trip.

There is no doubt that the AGR program was designed with the NEC business traveler in mind. The 100 point minimum was actually implemented just a few years back to try and level the playing field just a bit.

jackal

OK, I wasn't aware that only certain city pairs qualified for the 500/750 Acela bonus. I had also forgotten that AGR implemented a 100-point minimum.

I'm still not entirely sure where you've managed to somehow earn 215,000 points.

Since my original thought experiment was flawed, let me try another one. I'll try to be as generous to AGR as I can.

Let's say you take a BOS-NYP (a qualifying city pair, if I'm reading the AGR page correctly) business trip every other week on Acela. Let's further assume that you manage to travel at non-peak times and travel in Business class (basically, I'm trying to make the price of Acela as low as possible). This comes to a round-trip fare of $174 and nets you 1,000 points.

Assuming we can manage the same for a full year, in the course of a year, you would spend $4,524 and earn 26,000 points.

Now, let's assume during the off weeks, you have meetings in Los Angeles. I just found a fare between BWI and ORD for $271 rt on AA. On that trip, you'd earn 4,560 miles (according to the calculator at webflyer.com--that's the one I was thinking of earlier). Over the course of a year, you'd spend $7,046, but you'd earn 118,560 miles.

So, the AGR points have cost you roughly $.17 per point, but the AA miles have cost you only about $.06 per mile.

Then, when you factor in redemption value, it's even worse. A cross-country sleeper at 50,000 points is worth $1,500 (I just priced an LAX-NYP itinerary with bedrooms), or 3 cents per point. But a first-class trip LAX-SYD on QF, which uses 150,000 AS miles (and presumably the same number of AA miles), retails for $14,000 rt--meaning your miles are worth 9.3 cents per mile, more than three times as much. (And UA's even better--100,000 miles for LAX-SYD FC, and I'm not seeing anything below $19,000 for them.)

So, the Amtrak points cost 2.8 times as much per point to earn and are worth 3.1 times less than AA miles. If I'm lucid and clear-thinking, that means that (at least in the situation I've described above, and assuming no double/triple point promos) the AA miles have 8.8 times as much buying power as the AGR points. (And as I mentioned in my last post, it's nowhere near as easy to earn points on non-NEC, non-Acela trains.)

Some factors I see which could alter the outcome above:

-The already-mentioned double/triple-point bonuses Amtrak occasionally runs on Acela
-Higher fares on that IAD-LAX trip--especially on short notice, you might spend a lot more than $271 rt (whereas Amtrak's fare structure means fares are much more predictable)
-Redeeming the AA miles for less-valuable trips (say, BWI-ORD or something--though why anyone would do that would be beyond me, since you can find that route for $100)
-Taking Regional instead of Acela. The cost is less, but you also earn far fewer points, and your cost per point is a lot higher--you'd earn 232 miles on a BOS-NYP round trip on Regional, or about a quarter of the points for only half the cost (your cost per point jumps to 50 cents per point). Then again, on a real short-haul trip (WAS-BWI), the 100-point minimum and the $12 fare help to make the points more valuable (12 cents per point--still not competitive with AA, although a lot better than 50 cents per point), but it would take an awful lot of trips at 100 points each to build up a sizable account.

If you fit the right profile, you can (as you said you do) earn a lot of points on AGR--and for this type of travel, AGR is very competitive with short-haul commuter airline trips up and down the eastern seaboard. But AGR appeals to a very specific type of traveler. For the rest of us--those that don't live on the NEC and regularly travel Acela between those select city pairs (and who focus more on long-distance/transcontinental travel)--it's hard to take AGR seriously. (Believe me, I didn't start this discussion with this point in mind: I've come to this conclusion as a result of the thought experiments I've just conducted.) If I were going solely for the purpose of earning miles/points, I'd much rather spend my money on an AS or UA mileage run than an (or a bunch of) Amtrak trip(s) LAX-SAN, OAK-CHI, BOS-NYP or even WAS-BAL--the way I'm seeing it, I just can't earn as many points per dollar.

the_traveler

I only had about 17,000 points. (I got some of these recently via the Shopping Mall promo.) So to make my trip, I had to transfer some miles from CO.

If they were used for a cross country flight that would have cost 25,000 miles (for a ticket that could be bought for $500) - the value of my CO miles would be 2.0/mile.

For the same (OK, a few more) miles - which convert to AGR points as 1:1 - I got a 2 zone award for a bedroom (with a little creative thinking - sh! ) for 33,000 points (for a ticket that would have cost $2,227) - the value for my AGR points would be 6.7/point! ^

So, in this case, my AGR points are worth about 3.5 times more than if used as CO OnePass miles!

jackal

Yup--this is what I sort of intimated in my earlier post. For me, the CO partnership is what would make AGR worthwhile. In my type of travel, AGR doesn't have a high earning potential--CO does. And for domestic trips, anyway, CO (and pretty much all airlines) doesn't have a high spending value--but Amtrak's sleeper awards are a good deal. I didn't mean to say they weren't in my previous post--what I was doing was comparing them to international first-class awards, which are an insanely good value. (That's why I've got so many--it's taken me 15 years to earn them all, but I've never spent them on anything less than an international first-class trip because I see it as a waste to spend them on domestic flights.)

So, yes, compared to domestic award travel, Amtrak's a great deal! Congrats on your creativity!

AlanB

First, I've been in the program since like the second day one could join, now a little over 6 years. As for the points a bit over 78,000 came from actual riding, while another 53K and change was thanks to double point, triple point, magazine, and other bonus points.


I can't speak to the airline side, since I rarely fly and therefore don't bother to collect them since they expire if you don't use them and/or fly frequently enough, unlike AGR awards. However, assuming that I haven't made any mistakes with the formulas that I quickly threw together, here's how my numbers break down.

If I just consider actual points earned over the years, then I've paid about 29 cents per point. Allowing for the Select & Select Plus bonus points, drops it down to 23 cents per point. If I add in all the other bonus points, then my average drops to about 15 cents per point.

I suppose that if I were a bit more careful I could have improved on those numbers, but many of the tickets were brought without worrying about price, since my clients were paying for the trip.

What you say is true in a straight comparison, but IMHO that's hardly a fair comparison since all that you've really considered is getting from point A to point B. What you aren't factoring in here is that Amtrak is providing you in effect with a hotel room for 3 nights, as well as 10 meals in the dining car for that trip you've described above. At best the airline has served you 2 meals each way, for a total of 4. So to make your comparison more valid you would first have to factor into your equation the cost of a hotel room for 3 nights, as well as the costs of those extra meals above and beyond what you would get on your flight.

Additionally, with Amtrak you could bring along a friend/spouse/significant other for no additional cost. You'd need another award to bring along a friend on your flight, and even then you'd still be looking at buying an extra 6 meals for your friend for a total of 12 extra meals that are not included in the flight award.

Now I will grant you that you're covering many more miles, and perhaps this is the railfan in me speaking, but I get to see far more of the country on my trip than you'll see on your flight to SYD.