MR (USA) account balance suddenly increased 2X - 10X.
Dec 21, 2015, 6:41 pm
#106
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 35
What do you think would happen with flights that are already flown?
Dec 21, 2015, 6:47 pm
#107
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: SF Bay Area
Programs: UA 1K MM, Accor Plat, Htz PC, Natl ExEm, other random status
Posts: 2,876
They could probably find grounds to bring an arbitration claim against you and generally make your life miserable, if the amount was big enough that they decided it was worthwhile (i.e., the value of the tickets was large enough).
There's probably nothing that the airline can do at that point, though.
Honestly, I'm just guessing on this.
Greg
Dec 21, 2015, 6:50 pm
#108
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,072
There are at least a couple people on other sites claiming to have transferred (at least) seven figures' worth of erroneous points. I find it hard to believe Amex is just going to shrug that off.
Once things are stabilized, how hard could it be to ascertain who transferred points out during the glitch and then compare the transferred number to the correct pre-glitch number?
Once things are stabilized, how hard could it be to ascertain who transferred points out during the glitch and then compare the transferred number to the correct pre-glitch number?
Dec 21, 2015, 7:50 pm
#109
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Many posts have been removed, a few edited. Baiting, taunting, repetitive posting, and responses thereto are not permitted.
Last edited by mia; Dec 22, 2015 at 6:11 am
Dec 22, 2015, 6:41 am
#110
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 304
Congratulations.
It's really great for the legal profession that people like you exist.
For the rest of society, not so much.
To recount what I think are the facts (please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong):
* You suddenly had points that you didn't earn appear in your account.
* You transferred them out, knowing that you weren't entitled to them.
* You then booked airline tickets using those points that you knew you hadn't earned.
Ref from thread (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ameri...ed-2x-10x.html):
I'm hoping that you're just trolling all of us, and you didn't actually do this, but if you did, may I make a few suggestions?
You might wish to think a bit outside the box and consider whether what you have done comports with the terms and conditions of the contract you entered into with American Express with respect to Membership Rewards. Having looked at the T's & C's, "miraculous appearance in your account" is not one of the permitted ways of earning MR points. I suspect that, if Amex were so inclined, their lawyers would be enjoying the process of coming up with those sorts of arguments for how a transfer out of miles you didn't earn as a result of their mistake constitutes a breach of the T's & C's.
Nowhere in the T's & C's does it say that closure of your account is their sole & exclusive remedy for breaches by you of the T's & C's.
You might also wish to become familiar with the legal concepts of "unjust enrichment" and "disgorgement."
Restatement (Third) of the Law of Restitution and Unjust Enrichment Sec. 39 observes, in part:
You might also wish to consider the nature of the relationships between Amex and the air carrier to whom you transferred the points. It's not as though Amex doesn't know who received the "bonus" points, so it would be a simple matter for Amex to tell the airline that "the issuance of ticket number(s) [X] was fraudulent, please void."
It has the benefit of almost certainly being a completely true statement, but even if it's debatable, I wouldn't want to be you bringing an arbitration claim and trying to stand in front of an arbitrator and argue that Amex owes you the value of the tickets that were cancelled because you used points that were mistakenly deposited in your account. The law doesn't work that way.
You and I have gone around in the past over how you view your relationship with Amex. Historically, you've written:
It's one thing to churn and burn, which is at least permitted under the rules of the game that Amex has established. It's a totally different thing to buy airline tickets using points that you know Amex mistakenly put in your account.
You may get away with it because Amex decides it's not worth the effort, but on behalf of Amex cardholders who indirectly pay for this kind of behavior, I hope you don't.
Greg
It's really great for the legal profession that people like you exist.
For the rest of society, not so much.
To recount what I think are the facts (please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong):
* You suddenly had points that you didn't earn appear in your account.
* You transferred them out, knowing that you weren't entitled to them.
* You then booked airline tickets using those points that you knew you hadn't earned.
Ref from thread (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ameri...ed-2x-10x.html):
I'm hoping that you're just trolling all of us, and you didn't actually do this, but if you did, may I make a few suggestions?
You might wish to think a bit outside the box and consider whether what you have done comports with the terms and conditions of the contract you entered into with American Express with respect to Membership Rewards. Having looked at the T's & C's, "miraculous appearance in your account" is not one of the permitted ways of earning MR points. I suspect that, if Amex were so inclined, their lawyers would be enjoying the process of coming up with those sorts of arguments for how a transfer out of miles you didn't earn as a result of their mistake constitutes a breach of the T's & C's.
Nowhere in the T's & C's does it say that closure of your account is their sole & exclusive remedy for breaches by you of the T's & C's.
You might also wish to become familiar with the legal concepts of "unjust enrichment" and "disgorgement."
Restatement (Third) of the Law of Restitution and Unjust Enrichment Sec. 39 observes, in part:
You might also wish to consider the nature of the relationships between Amex and the air carrier to whom you transferred the points. It's not as though Amex doesn't know who received the "bonus" points, so it would be a simple matter for Amex to tell the airline that "the issuance of ticket number(s) [X] was fraudulent, please void."
It has the benefit of almost certainly being a completely true statement, but even if it's debatable, I wouldn't want to be you bringing an arbitration claim and trying to stand in front of an arbitrator and argue that Amex owes you the value of the tickets that were cancelled because you used points that were mistakenly deposited in your account. The law doesn't work that way.
You and I have gone around in the past over how you view your relationship with Amex. Historically, you've written:
It's one thing to churn and burn, which is at least permitted under the rules of the game that Amex has established. It's a totally different thing to buy airline tickets using points that you know Amex mistakenly put in your account.
You may get away with it because Amex decides it's not worth the effort, but on behalf of Amex cardholders who indirectly pay for this kind of behavior, I hope you don't.
Greg
If this really ever comes to a head, I would bet a mutual walkaway would occur once Amex got the Arb forms from JAMS.
Dec 22, 2015, 6:47 am
#111
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 304
You have it backwards - this is exactly *why* Amex would take action. If it
were only in the "very high tens" of thousands of points, they wouldn't care.
It sounds like there's real money involved, making it more likely that they're going to take action.
What makes you think that? They do it all the time for fraud.
It would be arbitration if it were against American Express, but in any event, who are you going to sue? If you bring an arbitration claim against Amex, what's your claim? You have to prove that Amex breached its contract with you - good luck on that one. "Mr. Arbitrator, I should be entitled to the value of those tickets because I redeemed points that were mine and were earned consistent with the terms and conditions of the Membership Rewards Agreement." The arbitrator will laugh.
If you sue the airline, you'll lose because, as txflyer77 points out, the contracts of carriage of the airlines have standard provisions that provide for their unilateral cancellation if they were improperly issued. What would your claim be? "Your honor, Airline improperly cancelled my ticket because I used points that I knew I shouldn't have used." The judge will laugh as he signs the order for summary judgment against you.
I guess you could file a DOT complaint, but I wouldn't recommend it. The feds take a dim, but rather expansive view of things that could constitute fraud.
were only in the "very high tens" of thousands of points, they wouldn't care.
It sounds like there's real money involved, making it more likely that they're going to take action.
What makes you think that? They do it all the time for fraud.
It would be arbitration if it were against American Express, but in any event, who are you going to sue? If you bring an arbitration claim against Amex, what's your claim? You have to prove that Amex breached its contract with you - good luck on that one. "Mr. Arbitrator, I should be entitled to the value of those tickets because I redeemed points that were mine and were earned consistent with the terms and conditions of the Membership Rewards Agreement." The arbitrator will laugh.
If you sue the airline, you'll lose because, as txflyer77 points out, the contracts of carriage of the airlines have standard provisions that provide for their unilateral cancellation if they were improperly issued. What would your claim be? "Your honor, Airline improperly cancelled my ticket because I used points that I knew I shouldn't have used." The judge will laugh as he signs the order for summary judgment against you.
I guess you could file a DOT complaint, but I wouldn't recommend it. The feds take a dim, but rather expansive view of things that could constitute fraud.
Dec 22, 2015, 8:58 am
#112
Join Date: May 2015
Location: LAX, BUR
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Those "extra points" are going to be reversed just like Ms Colombia had her crown reversed.
Oops
Oops
Dec 22, 2015, 9:10 am
#113
Suspended
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Location: USA
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Posts: 1,403
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Dec 22, 2015, 10:51 am
#115
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 87
American Express won't contact airlines to get the points back in this case . You are responsible to do it . They will put negative points balance in your account until you pay off . Closing your account will not solve the problem .
Dec 22, 2015, 11:04 am
#116
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 223
Point Correction 20,000 (the extra points)
Point correction -2323 (since I didn't transfer every last point)
Point correction -2323
Point correction 2323 (not sure what these last 2 entries did).
So, for now, my balance is 0, and I don't really care if they close my MR and AMEX card accounts, because I don't use the cards much anyway.
But if the account goes negative, what is meant by "Paying it off?" Does it mean $ or earn enough points until it becomes positive. If the latter, I'm done.
Dec 22, 2015, 11:06 am
#117
Suspended
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 8,460
So, I'm a big fan of this answer, I think. Actually, at this point, they haven't put the negative balance in my account. My account looks like this (with the numbers made up):
Point Correction 20,000 (the extra points)
Point correction -2323 (since I didn't transfer every last point)
Point correction -2323
Point correction 2323 (not sure what these last 2 entries did).
So, for now, my balance is 0, and I don't really care if they close my MR and AMEX card accounts, because I don't use the cards much anyway.
But if the account goes negative, what is meant by "Paying it off?" Does it mean $ or earn enough points until it becomes positive. If the latter, I'm done.
Point Correction 20,000 (the extra points)
Point correction -2323 (since I didn't transfer every last point)
Point correction -2323
Point correction 2323 (not sure what these last 2 entries did).
So, for now, my balance is 0, and I don't really care if they close my MR and AMEX card accounts, because I don't use the cards much anyway.
But if the account goes negative, what is meant by "Paying it off?" Does it mean $ or earn enough points until it becomes positive. If the latter, I'm done.
Dec 22, 2015, 11:14 am
#118
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Boulder
Programs: AA Plat, CX Silver
Posts: 2,361
So, I'm a big fan of this answer, I think. Actually, at this point, they haven't put the negative balance in my account. My account looks like this (with the numbers made up):
Point Correction 20,000 (the extra points)
Point correction -2323 (since I didn't transfer every last point)
Point correction -2323
Point correction 2323 (not sure what these last 2 entries did).
So, for now, my balance is 0, and I don't really care if they close my MR and AMEX card accounts, because I don't use the cards much anyway.
But if the account goes negative, what is meant by "Paying it off?" Does it mean $ or earn enough points until it becomes positive. If the latter, I'm done.
Point Correction 20,000 (the extra points)
Point correction -2323 (since I didn't transfer every last point)
Point correction -2323
Point correction 2323 (not sure what these last 2 entries did).
So, for now, my balance is 0, and I don't really care if they close my MR and AMEX card accounts, because I don't use the cards much anyway.
But if the account goes negative, what is meant by "Paying it off?" Does it mean $ or earn enough points until it becomes positive. If the latter, I'm done.
Even if the cardholder closed their accounts, Amex could easily send it to collections just like any other unpaid credit card bill. Just because an account is closed doesn't mean the cardholder can walk away from the balance.
Dec 22, 2015, 11:18 am
#119
Suspended
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 8,460
There's precedent for this. Back when Amex advanced MRs, you had to earn back that many within a certain time frame (6 months?) or Amex billed you for the points at 2.5 cents each.
Even if the cardholder closed their accounts, Amex could easily send it to collections just like any other unpaid credit card bill. Just because an account is closed doesn't mean the cardholder can walk away from the balance.
Even if the cardholder closed their accounts, Amex could easily send it to collections just like any other unpaid credit card bill. Just because an account is closed doesn't mean the cardholder can walk away from the balance.
Dec 22, 2015, 11:18 am
#120
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Boulder
Programs: AA Plat, CX Silver
Posts: 2,361