Unbelievable aa reply to account closure for fraudulent credit card use
Apr 4, 2019, 7:08 am
#166
Join Date: Feb 2015
Programs: UA 1K
Posts: 957
Assuming this is not an April fool's joke, I'm 100% on board with AA asking for 100% of the balance for each of these tickets. There is a 24hr cancellation policy for purchased tickets. OP purchased tickets and did not cancel within 24 hours. OP violated terms of service, committed fraud, etc. If I sign a purchase order for my business, that's a contract. I assume airlines view purchasing tickets as the same, and I assume all of these tix were non-refundable after 24 hours.
Go get him, AA!
Go get him, AA!
Apr 4, 2019, 8:00 am
#167
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 42,037
Assuming this is not an April fool's joke, I'm 100% on board with AA asking for 100% of the balance for each of these tickets. There is a 24hr cancellation policy for purchased tickets. OP purchased tickets and did not cancel within 24 hours. OP violated terms of service, committed fraud, etc. If I sign a purchase order for my business, that's a contract. I assume airlines view purchasing tickets as the same, and I assume all of these tix were non-refundable after 24 hours.
Go get him, AA!
Go get him, AA!
Apr 4, 2019, 8:19 am
#169
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: SAN
Programs: AA CK, Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 839
correct, perhaps I didn’t make that clear. If this is/was a software glitch, it seems that many others could have discovered this and used this to hold flights.
Apr 4, 2019, 10:11 am
#170
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: LAX
Programs: DL PM etc
Posts: 74
This isn't really illegal. If I call up a store and say "please hold some milk for me", then go to the store, and offer them canadian cash or my monopoly money for the milk - the grocery store will simply say "no we don't accept that", and I will say "okay" and leave. Nothing here is illegal, except after 3 years of doing this the store will probably say "yeah we don't want you as our customer".
This is exactly what happened here. Nothing illegal or fraudulent in providing an invalid form of payment (since OP never actually got the goods/tickets). But sure, AA might not like this after 3 years and kick them out as a customer. AA offers free five-day holds, so they can't even ask for damages here unless they are so incompetent that they cannot validate and void a reservation on an invalid card within 5 days.
Frankly AA should be thanking the OP in revealing this critical flaw in their ticketing system.
This is exactly what happened here. Nothing illegal or fraudulent in providing an invalid form of payment (since OP never actually got the goods/tickets). But sure, AA might not like this after 3 years and kick them out as a customer. AA offers free five-day holds, so they can't even ask for damages here unless they are so incompetent that they cannot validate and void a reservation on an invalid card within 5 days.
Frankly AA should be thanking the OP in revealing this critical flaw in their ticketing system.
Given that a contract isn't established until the 13 digit ticket number is issued, which clearly wasn't issued in this case, i don't see what OP did was legally wrong. Ethically, maybe, but legally there hasn't been a contract established without a ticket being issued/payment made, so there isn't really anything wrong here all things considered.
Flyertalk has hammered into our heads many times that you have nothing until you have the actual 13 digit eticket. All the PNR/Reservation/TicketPending etc don't matter at all in terms of a legally binding ticket contract to transport someone. So why do they suddenly matter in this thread? OP made just a booking and didn't make a valid payment - so no contract. AA can decide to drop OP as a customer, but i don't see any legal issues of fraud here.
Flyertalk has hammered into our heads many times that you have nothing until you have the actual 13 digit eticket. All the PNR/Reservation/TicketPending etc don't matter at all in terms of a legally binding ticket contract to transport someone. So why do they suddenly matter in this thread? OP made just a booking and didn't make a valid payment - so no contract. AA can decide to drop OP as a customer, but i don't see any legal issues of fraud here.
In the airline example, the contract is clear. The customer promises to pay, now, by clicking a "Pay Now" button and by tendering a payment method. The airline accepts the offer by removing inventory and putting it in a reservation.
"Illegal" is thrown around too loosely. It's not clear whether it refers to criminal activity or some other conduct that fouls the contractual relationship between the parties. Breach of contract is conduct that subjects the actor to liability for broken bilateral promises. Fraud in the formation of a contract may render a contract void and may create liability for damages. These are issues of contract law, not criminal law. And you don't have to actually receive tickets for it to be fraud; it is enough that the customer got some benefit. Here, that benefit is the holding of a reservation which the airline would otherwise not have granted the customer.
Apr 4, 2019, 10:53 am
#171
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Thousand Oaks, Ca., USA
Programs: AA Lifetime Plat; Bonvoy Titanium Lifetime Elite;Hyatt Globalist; HHonors Diamond; United Silver
Posts: 8,315
If you'd bothered to click any of those links in the bottom, you would have found your answer.
Almost all (maybe all) the fare rules state the following:
By clicking pay now, you agree to the terms of the fare, and you create a reservation. The fare rules state you must ticket by midnight 1 day after making a reservation (which happens when you pay for it with a real method of payment). Ergo, you've violated the fare rules by creating a reservation with an invalid credit card (Unless you rectify the situation such that ticketing is completed by midnight 1 day after making the reservation), aside from the fact that you fraudulently provided a bogus card in the first place, which I liken to bouncing a check. You've entered into an agreement bound by the fare rules and CoC when you click Pay Now, and OP can and will be held to those rules, which include tendering payment to advance the ticket to Ticketed status "by midnight 1 day after making a reservation."
Seriously, it was one click.
Almost all (maybe all) the fare rules state the following:
By clicking pay now, you agree to the terms of the fare, and you create a reservation. The fare rules state you must ticket by midnight 1 day after making a reservation (which happens when you pay for it with a real method of payment). Ergo, you've violated the fare rules by creating a reservation with an invalid credit card (Unless you rectify the situation such that ticketing is completed by midnight 1 day after making the reservation), aside from the fact that you fraudulently provided a bogus card in the first place, which I liken to bouncing a check. You've entered into an agreement bound by the fare rules and CoC when you click Pay Now, and OP can and will be held to those rules, which include tendering payment to advance the ticket to Ticketed status "by midnight 1 day after making a reservation."
Seriously, it was one click.
I think it's the knowingly providing an invalid credit card is the illegality, and not because the T&Cs say something that is contradictory to other things AA says.
Apr 4, 2019, 12:28 pm
#172
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 10,904
On the criminal side, there could be several charges... take your pick. Wire fraud ("Fraud by wire, radio, or television") is the obvious one (it has a nice broad definition)
Apr 4, 2019, 12:56 pm
#173
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: FIND ME ON TWITTER FOR THE LATEST
Posts: 27,730
The grocery store analogy is inapt. One, who would ever call a grocery store to ask for a product to be held? Two, such a call does not a contract make. The grocery store is not accepting a promise from the nervous potential milk customer to buy the milk in exchange for removing it from the shelf. If anything, the grocery store is merely affording the customer a courtesy. The key difference being that the grocery store does not ask for a form of payment on the phone call, and would be free to sell the milk to someone else if there was only one carton of milk left in the store and another customer appeared and offered to buy it.
In the airline example, the contract is clear. The customer promises to pay, now, by clicking a "Pay Now" button and by tendering a payment method. The airline accepts the offer by removing inventory and putting it in a reservation.
"Illegal" is thrown around too loosely. It's not clear whether it refers to criminal activity or some other conduct that fouls the contractual relationship between the parties. Breach of contract is conduct that subjects the actor to liability for broken bilateral promises. Fraud in the formation of a contract may render a contract void and may create liability for damages. These are issues of contract law, not criminal law. And you don't have to actually receive tickets for it to be fraud; it is enough that the customer got some benefit. Here, that benefit is the holding of a reservation which the airline would otherwise not have granted the customer.
In the airline example, the contract is clear. The customer promises to pay, now, by clicking a "Pay Now" button and by tendering a payment method. The airline accepts the offer by removing inventory and putting it in a reservation.
"Illegal" is thrown around too loosely. It's not clear whether it refers to criminal activity or some other conduct that fouls the contractual relationship between the parties. Breach of contract is conduct that subjects the actor to liability for broken bilateral promises. Fraud in the formation of a contract may render a contract void and may create liability for damages. These are issues of contract law, not criminal law. And you don't have to actually receive tickets for it to be fraud; it is enough that the customer got some benefit. Here, that benefit is the holding of a reservation which the airline would otherwise not have granted the customer.
Apr 4, 2019, 1:15 pm
#176
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Southern California
Programs: AA EXPlat, 2.4MM; HHonors Diamond
Posts: 580
Given that a contract isn't established until the 13 digit ticket number is issued, which clearly wasn't issued in this case, i don't see what OP did was legally wrong. Ethically, maybe, but legally there hasn't been a contract established without a ticket being issued/payment made, so there isn't really anything wrong here all things considered.
Flyertalk has hammered into our heads many times that you have nothing until you have the actual 13 digit eticket. All the PNR/Reservation/TicketPending etc don't matter at all in terms of a legally binding ticket contract to transport someone. So why do they suddenly matter in this thread? OP made just a booking and didn't make a valid payment - so no contract. AA can decide to drop OP as a customer, but i don't see any legal issues of fraud here.
Flyertalk has hammered into our heads many times that you have nothing until you have the actual 13 digit eticket. All the PNR/Reservation/TicketPending etc don't matter at all in terms of a legally binding ticket contract to transport someone. So why do they suddenly matter in this thread? OP made just a booking and didn't make a valid payment - so no contract. AA can decide to drop OP as a customer, but i don't see any legal issues of fraud here.
Apr 4, 2019, 1:52 pm
#177
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Orange County, CA, USA
Programs: AA (Life Plat), Marriott (Life Titanium) and every other US program
Posts: 6,411
As much as I respect both the "mover" (poster) and the "seconders" (likes), I am going to disagree on this one. I suspect (others can correct me) that in this instance AA is actually going to BAN the OP from purchasing tickets on AA. This isn't a problem with misuse of FF miles. This is a demonstration of a customer who believes that it is okay to commit actual intentional fraud. You can spin it any way you want, but from AA's perspective, I am pretty confident that I am seeing it correctly. And IF they think this person wants to walk away after being caught in such conduct, then I think AA is going to decide that there is no net profit in dealing with such a person.
Apr 4, 2019, 8:23 pm
#178
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: BOS/UTH
Programs: AA LT PLT; QR GLD; Bonvoy LT TIT
Posts: 12,755
Not only is it breach by the customer, it is also basic fraud because the customer 1) knowingly made a misrepresentation by tendering a credit card the customer knows was invalid 2) intending to make the airline do something (hold inventory) for the customer's benefit and 3) the airline actually did it.