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Recent 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)

Recent 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)

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Old Jun 17, 19, 6:57 am   -   Wikipost
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This thread is dedicated to the effect on AA from the October 29, 2018 and March 10, 2019 crashes if two Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft in Indonesia and Ethiopia, respectively.

To discuss reaccommodation by AA subsequent to the grounding of all Boeing MAX 8s and 9s by the US Federal Aviation Administration on 13 March 2019, please refer to 737 MAX grounded 13 Mar 2019. What to do if you were supposed to fly on one?


13 March 2019: All US airline Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft are grounded by US Federal Aviation Administration emergency order. AA has removed all 737 MAX 8 from scheduling through 19 August 2019.

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The thread regarding the 10 March 2019 Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 737 MAX 8 crash out of Adis Ababa is Ethiopian Airlines: Boeing 737 Max 8 crashes on way to Kenya [ET302 ADD-NBO 10MAR19]. Link.

The thread regarding the 29 October 2018 Lion Air JT 610 737 MAX 8 crash out of Jakarta is Lion Air flight from Jakarta has crashed
. Link.

American Airlines ordered 100 Boeing 737 MAX 8 (7M8) with options for 60 more. The first 737 MAX -8 flew at the assembly facility in Renton, WAshington, USA on 29 Jan 2016. Deliveries to AA commenced in late in 2017, with four delivered in 2017,16 more during 2018, with 20 more to be delivered during 2019. IATA code B38M; AA code "7M8".

Link to the story of how 737 MAX’ birth in the DFW Admirals Club and the forces that shaped it.

29 October 2018: Indonesian carrier Lion Air Flight 610 on October 29 crashed into the sea soon after takeoff with the loss of all aboard, apparently due to the erroneous data from a faulty Angle of Attack sensor, which caused the MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to assume the plane was about to stall, which activated the downward force on the Stabilizer Trim to get the nose down. Link to BBC article.

Link to Aviation Herald discussion.

Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.

“Instead of switching off the Stabilizer Trim the pilots appear to have battled the system.” Link

This aircraft had been written up as having a faulty AOA indicator for the previous three flights it had taken. It is unclear if Lion Air had performed adequate maintenance procedures after the reports or withdraw the aircraft from service until the fault could be completely cleared.

7 November 2018: The US Federal Aviation Administration / FAA issued an Airworthiness Directive (AD note) covering the AOA within a few days, giving US airlines 30 days to comply with the AD.

7 November 2018: Boeing issued revised operating instructions covering the revised MCAS used in the MAX 8, updating the MAX operations manual. See the manual update and the switches referenced in this post.

See “What is the Boeing 737 MAX Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System?”, updated November 17 to explain the MCAS and electric trim override operation, here: link.

10 March 10, 2019: An Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 departing Addis Ababa to Nairobi turned back to the airport soon after takeoff, but crashed with the loss of all aboard.

Link to BBC article.

Link to Aviation Herald discussion.

Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.

10 March 10, 2019: The US National Transportation Board / NTSB has dispatched an investigation team, as have Boeing, to Addis Ababa to assist the Ethiopian investigators in determining the cause(s) of the crash. The “black boxes” (cockpit voice and the flight data recorder have been recovered.

A revised MCAS is in the works, and the FAA is expected to issue an AD note when the MCAS update is done. This is expected to occur in May, 2019.

11 March 2019: China grounded its 737 MAX 8 (not MAX 9) fleet.

11 March 2019: the US FAA stated it would not ground US (AA, AS, UA, WN) 737 MAX aircraft at this time.

Link to FAA Airworthiness Notification for USA registered B38M aircraft PDF.

Link to Wall Street Journal article.

11 March 2019: AA APFA Flight Attendant union spokesperson asked AA to ground the MAX 8s. (TPG)

11 March 2019: AA pilots through their APA union have requested passengers allow the investigators do their work and refrain from jumping to conclusions. “We caution against speculation about what may have caused this tragic accident,” the Air Line Pilots Association said in a statement. (TPG)

12 March 2019: The nation members of the European Union, the United Kingdom and several other nations ban their airlines’ operation, and other airlines’ overflight or flights, of the B38M aircraft. Link to New York Times article.

12 March 2019: Other USA airlines operating 737 MAX aircraft (of all types) are United (UA), Southwest (WN). AS has ordered the MAX 9, but deliveries have not yet been made.

Link to The Points Guy “how to tell if you’re flying a 737 MAX 8” article

13 March 2019: American Airlines pilots’ union APA issues statement in support of the AA B38M: “The AA APA spokesman says AA's MAX 8s have additional indicators on the planes, which others do not have. He says they're the only ones equipped with TWO AOA displays - one for each pilot. This, I guess, is why AA feels they can keep flying the MAX 8. The spokesman said he felt UA and SW (WN) were getting these added to their MAX planes. “ - Econometrics

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/03/1...ilot-says.html

13 March 2019: Canada grounds Canadian B38M aircraft. The US is the sole remaining nation to allow operation of the 737 MAX 8. Link to USA Today article.

13 March 2019: US Federal Aviation Administration issues emergency order for immediate grounding all USA airline operated Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft, effectively immediately. Link NYT story.

13 March 2019: American Airlines issues announcement of 7M8 grounding. Link to PDF. According to AA:

On average, American operates 85 flights per day on the MAX 8, out of 6,700 departures throughout the American Airlines system. Our operations center is working to re-route aircraft throughout the system to cover as much of our schedule as we can.
13 March 2019: AA issues policy allowing those scheduled for 7M8 flights through April 4 to refund or change without fees for cancellations, or to make free changes to their flight plans. See the thread linked to at the top of this Wiki for a link.

14 March 2019: It is announced the French BEA will retrieve the data from the Ethiopian Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder.

Link to Eight things you might not know about black boxes
By Cristen Tilley, ABC Australia

15 March 2019: BBC article states FAA says the MAX will not be cleared for flight at least until May. Link to story.

15 March 2019: On the other hand, CNBC states Boeing will have the anti-stall software update for the MAX ready in ten days, and that the FAA is expected to sign off on the modification on March 25, 2019.

Currently, AA has removed the 737 MAX 8 aircraft from scheduling through 19 August 2019. The FAA must clear the MAX before it can fly again. AA has 24 MAX 8s grounded and has canceled 115 daily flights as a result. 30 April 2019

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Old Mar 12, 19, 2:35 pm
  #256  
 
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EDIT didn't realize this thread was being combined with the other one

Last edited by btravel112; Mar 12, 19 at 2:42 pm Reason: removing repetitive info
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Old Mar 12, 19, 3:38 pm
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737 Max 8 concerns by pilots

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/...ed-safety-flaw

Read this and let me know what you think. There were Pilots on 737 max8 concerned about issues before first crash.
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Last edited by JDiver; Mar 12, 19 at 4:30 pm Reason: Activate dead link
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Old Mar 12, 19, 3:45 pm
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Originally Posted by dallaspopo View Post
https://www.dallasnews.com/business/airlines/2019/03/12/boeing-737-max-8-pilots-complained-feds-months-suspected-safety-flaw

Read this and let me know what you think. There were Pilots on 737 max8 concerned about issues before first crash.
This is an interesting quote from a pilot feedback to the FAA, cited in the link you provide:

After 1000 feet I noticed a decrease in aircraft performance. I picked up that the autothrottles were not moving to commanded position even though they were engaged. I'm sure they were set properly for takeoff but not sure when the discrepancy took place. My scan wasn't as well developed since I've only flown the MAX once before. I manually positioned the thrust levers ASAP. This resolve the threat, we were able to increase speed to clean up and continue the climb to 3000 feet.
(Italics mine)

https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...ent/p2/a486265

That sounds eerily familiar to the initial reports from FR24 data on ET302.
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Old Mar 12, 19, 4:40 pm
  #259  
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Originally Posted by dallaspopo View Post
https://www.dallasnews.com/business/...ed-safety-flaw

Read this and let me know what you think. There were Pilots on 737 max8 concerned about issues before first crash.
Yes, there were.

And the FAA issued an Airworthiness Directive note 7 November, Boeing issued an operations manual update as well.

Boeing Company today published an update to the flight crew operations manual for its 737 Max 8, warning of a possible fault in the aircraft’s angle of attack system that could cause the aircraft to violently pitch nose down, according to the FAA. The AOA measures the angular difference between the direction the aircraft is moving and the pitch of the aircraft’s wing. The agency followed the ops manual update with an emergency airworthiness directive against the aircraft, warning operators the pitch-over threat exists even when the aircraft is being hand flown by pilots. The agency said operators have less than 30 days to comply with the AD. - Flying
See the Operations Manual Bulletin (OMB) issued to all Boeing 737 MAX operators 7 Nov 2019 and the switches to cut out below.

In the meantime,

For the past several months and in the aftermath of Lion Air Flight 610, Boeing has been developing a flight control software enhancement for the 737 MAX, designed to make an already safe aircraft even safer. This includes updates to the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) flight control law, pilot displays, operation manuals and crew training. The enhanced flight control law incorporates angle of attack (AOA) inputs, limits stabilizer trim commands in response to an erroneous angle of attack reading, and provides a limit to the stabilizer command in order to retain elevator authority.

...

The FAA says it anticipates mandating this software enhancement with an Airworthiness Directive (AD) no later than April. We have worked with the FAA in development of this software enhancement.

It is important to note that the FAA is not mandating any further action at this time, and the required actions in AD2018-23.5 continue to be appropriate.

A pitch augmentation control law (MCAS) was implemented on the 737 MAX to improve aircraft handling characteristics and decrease pitch-up tendency at elevated angles of attack. It was put through flight testing as part of the certification process prior to the airplane entering service. MCAS does not control the airplane in normal flight; it improves the behavior of the airplane in a non-normal part of the operating envelope.

Boeing’s 737 MAX Flight Crew Operations Manual (FCOM) already outlines an existing procedure to safely handle the unlikely event of erroneous data coming from an angle of attack (AOA) sensor. The pilot will always be able to override the flight control law using electric trim or manual trim. In addition, it can be controlled through the use of the existing runaway stabilizer procedure as reinforced in the Operations Manual Bulletin (OMB) issued on Nov. 6, 2018. - Boeing, in Aviation Herald
Faulty AOA has been implicated in Airbus incidents as well.

Unfortunately, Boeing didn’t take the next step, and they’re now planning to install an update to the MCAS - next month. AA, UA and WN pilots believe they’ve got this covered. But Boeing is already taking a hit, and it’s likely just going to get worse.

I highly recommend reading the Aviation Herald discussion here.
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Last edited by JDiver; Mar 12, 19 at 5:10 pm
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Old Mar 12, 19, 5:05 pm
  #260  
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Originally Posted by ryan182 View Post
EASA bans 737MAX, that covers all EU countries...perhaps we should track the reverse at this point and just list the Countries still allowing airlines to fly the 737MAX
Another advantage to Brexit, they can still fly the MAX.
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Old Mar 12, 19, 5:14 pm
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I just called AA to see if I could switch from a Max flight--not without paying change fee and any changes in fare.
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Old Mar 12, 19, 5:20 pm
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Originally Posted by Mr. Vker View Post
I just called AA to see if I could switch from a Max flight--not without paying change fee and any changes in fare.
Absolutely criminal. At this point AA/WN/CA/UA are simply saying they’re too macho to ground their aircraft. The FAA needs to wake up and put a stop to this.
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Last edited by SouthernCross; Mar 13, 19 at 7:07 am
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Old Mar 12, 19, 5:20 pm
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Originally Posted by sbrower View Post
Another advantage to Brexit, they can still fly the MAX.
On Mar 12th 2019 the UK CAA, announced with respect to Boeing 737 MAX: "The UK Civil Aviation Authority has been closely monitoring the situation, however, as we do not currently have sufficient information from the flight data recorder we have, as a precautionary measure, issued instructions to stop any commercial passenger flights from any operator arriving, departing or overflying UK airspace."
AA has not issued any travel alerts based on the 737 MAX 8, and is not allowing free changes to nonrefundable fares or those with change fees to book away from 7M8 aircraft.
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Old Mar 12, 19, 5:32 pm
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Originally Posted by JDiver View Post
I highly recommend reading the Aviation Herald discussion here.
And pilots are supposed to remember all that instantly in the moment the plane unexpectedly pitches down?!?
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Old Mar 12, 19, 5:39 pm
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Originally Posted by sbrower View Post
Another advantage to Brexit, they can still fly the MAX.
lol, UK banned 737M8 before EASA banned it.
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Old Mar 12, 19, 5:40 pm
  #266  
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Originally Posted by DenverBrian View Post
And pilots are supposed to remember all that instantly in the moment the plane unexpectedly pitches down?!?
I assure you AA pilots are quite aware of this issue right now, and the FCOM is quite explicit. If it pitches down while the pilots are hand flying, anyway, and they certainly know to cut out both stab switches when hand flying. ALPA AA has issued a statement they’d prefer people don’t jump to conclusions and allow the investigators (EAIB - Ethiopia Accident Investigation Bureau and USNTSB, assisted by Boeing) be allowed to carry out their investigation. One thing I’ll not do is second guess the USA pilots flying these aircraft.
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Old Mar 12, 19, 5:43 pm
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Originally Posted by DenverBrian View Post
And pilots are supposed to remember all that instantly in the moment the plane unexpectedly pitches down?!?
You'd be stunned-- apparently-- how much a pilot is expected to know and how quickly they need to react.
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Old Mar 12, 19, 6:06 pm
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Originally Posted by JDiver View Post
I assure you AA pilots are quite aware of this issue right now, and the FCOM is quite explicit. If it pitches down while the pilots are hand flying, anyway, and they certainly know to cut out both stab switches when hand flying. ALPA AA has issued a statement they’d prefer people don’t jump to conclusions and allow the investigators (EAIB - Ethiopia Accident Investigation Bureau and USNTSB, assisted by Boeing) be allowed to carry out their investigation. One thing I’ll not do is second guess the USA pilots flying these aircraft.
So you are saying Ethiopia pilot didn't know this, after Lionair 610 crash 4 months ago?
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Old Mar 12, 19, 6:19 pm
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Originally Posted by chrisfwm View Post
So you are saying Ethiopia pilot didn't know this, after Lionair 610 crash 4 months ago?
I don’t think I said that at all, did I? I do know the FAA AD applies to USA based aircraft and airlines, and we won’t know whether the ET pilots knew this, were trained or not, nor much more - including the causes of the crash - until the respective investigation authorities release their full investigation, or interim statements.
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Old Mar 12, 19, 6:21 pm
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Originally Posted by JonNYC View Post
You'd be stunned-- apparently-- how much a pilot is expected to know and how quickly they need to react.
I can’t recall the source, but iirc this scenario is currently part of their simulator training, and I’m sure check pilots are harping on this as well.
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