AA, please change your standby/upgrade procedure for first class tickets!
Dec 20, 2017, 1:58 pm
#91
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Of course, if that is the procedure, then I would also prefer they also bump the person out of the seat I had occupied for the upgrade.
If I requested an upgrade out of my exit row seat for a transcontinental flight, and they lose the upgrade, I don't want to be stuck in a middle seat in a non-MCE row
If I requested an upgrade out of my exit row seat for a transcontinental flight, and they lose the upgrade, I don't want to be stuck in a middle seat in a non-MCE row
Dec 20, 2017, 9:57 pm
#92
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Seat 1A
Programs: Non-status paid F/J (best value for $$$)
Posts: 4,124
Comment from naive paid F flyer (who tends to avoid North American carriers with FF status upgrade) here.
Why can't they just have two (or three if three class aircraft) separate standby lists, one for each cabin? It seems like a lot of airlines (maybe all) have only one standby list and that is for the Y cabin supplemented with upgrade lists.
In the ideal world this is how it should work if there is a standby list for each cabin:
If you buy F (or discounted F) you go on the F cabin standby list (and J cabin and Y cabin lists as well if you ask).
If you buy J (or discounted J) you go on the J cabin standby list (and Y cabin list as well if you ask).
If you buy Y (or discounted Y) you go on the Y cabin standby list.
The ideal order of clearance once check-in closes would be:
1) Clear F cabin standby list (This is done until F cabin is full. Those not cleared have the option of being moved to the J cabin and Y cabin lists. J --> F upgrade list is closed if no more seats in F cabin available)
2) If there are still F cabin seats available after F cabin standby list cleared, J --> F upgrades are processed as usual until F cabin full
3) Clear J cabin standby list (This is done until J cabin is full. Those not cleared have the option of being moved to the Y cabin list. Y--> J upgrade list is closed if no more seats in J cabin available)
4) If there are still J cabin seats available after J cabin standby list cleared, Y --> J upgrades are processed as usual until J cabin full
5) Clear Y cabin standby list
If airlines adopted a way to have separate standby lists for each physical cabin, then what the OP happened would not have occured.
Why can't they just have two (or three if three class aircraft) separate standby lists, one for each cabin? It seems like a lot of airlines (maybe all) have only one standby list and that is for the Y cabin supplemented with upgrade lists.
In the ideal world this is how it should work if there is a standby list for each cabin:
If you buy F (or discounted F) you go on the F cabin standby list (and J cabin and Y cabin lists as well if you ask).
If you buy J (or discounted J) you go on the J cabin standby list (and Y cabin list as well if you ask).
If you buy Y (or discounted Y) you go on the Y cabin standby list.
The ideal order of clearance once check-in closes would be:
1) Clear F cabin standby list (This is done until F cabin is full. Those not cleared have the option of being moved to the J cabin and Y cabin lists. J --> F upgrade list is closed if no more seats in F cabin available)
2) If there are still F cabin seats available after F cabin standby list cleared, J --> F upgrades are processed as usual until F cabin full
3) Clear J cabin standby list (This is done until J cabin is full. Those not cleared have the option of being moved to the Y cabin list. Y--> J upgrade list is closed if no more seats in J cabin available)
4) If there are still J cabin seats available after J cabin standby list cleared, Y --> J upgrades are processed as usual until J cabin full
5) Clear Y cabin standby list
If airlines adopted a way to have separate standby lists for each physical cabin, then what the OP happened would not have occured.
Dec 21, 2017, 7:52 am
#93
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: QDF
Programs: AA EXP (2MM), Marriott Tit
Posts: 1,038
Dec 21, 2017, 8:28 am
#94
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: New York
Programs: AA EXP 1.0mm, not sure where I am with hotels these days
Posts: 2,795
I was flying ORD-LGA very recently and on the bubble for the UPG. I ended up missing it because they took two FC stand by passengers. Based on the amount of seats available and my position on the UPG list I should have gotten the UPG, but since they took the two paid FC stand bys I was out of luck. GA confirmed this because I went to check on my chances and she said there are two people not on the UPG list that will make you miss the UPG.
Dec 21, 2017, 9:12 am
#95
Join Date: Apr 2015
Programs: AA Gold, Enterprise PLT, Marriott Gold
Posts: 604
See, I just don't think that's a good argument, with all due respect. If the full Y pax gets exactly what he paid for, then what's the problem? (And he's paying full Y for the ability to even book last-minute, not for upgrade chances). I can't even begin to tell you how many people on FT bemoan the sense of entitlement toward upgrades.The DL forum even has an acronym: WFBF -- Want First? Buy First. The terms of the F ticket purchase allow confirmed flight change and standby.
I agree it should not be up in the air, but we are getting conflicting information about the PALL list here. Frankly, I don't really know who to believe.
I agree it should not be up in the air, but we are getting conflicting information about the PALL list here. Frankly, I don't really know who to believe.
So basically, in some cases AA would feel booking for a specific flight trumps fare code booked, and in some instances they may not with UPG vs Stby F. At the end of the day either is guaranteed what they paid for, the UPG pax is guaranteed a seat in Y like they booked, the F stdby pax is still guaranteed their F on the flight they bought, a different flight. Argument can go either way... Both terms say they can standby for F, one via their status the other via their ticket.
So basically it becomes which is more important to AA, being on the flight and using loyalty status, or not being on that flight, instead a later flight, but fare code.
Last edited by SpinOn2; Dec 21, 2017 at 9:19 am
Dec 21, 2017, 10:34 am
#96
Join Date: Jan 2012
Programs: AY+ Plat, Marriott Plat, Hyatt Discoverist
Posts: 2,846
Yes and the terms of an elite status member for loyalty shows upgrade eligible if open. That's exactly what elites pay for as well, their money and status allows them to standby for earlier flights or upgrading into F. You can easily make the argument Want First? Buy First for that specific flight, as well. The UPG paid for and purchased a seat on that specific flight, in Y, the F standby paid for an F seat in a different flight. Let's say hypothetically there are no upgrades at all somehow, but a flight is oversold by 1 seat only because one coach seat is innop and the only remaining seat open is F. The person booked on the flight with no seat is getting that seat before a standby F pax obviously. So in this case AA obviously feels getting the pax booked on that flight in Y deserves the F seat on that flight if they have to over someone who is merely standing by for earlier F. I mean makes since, you are booked on that flight you shouldn't be bumped off, they weren't. Now I realize a UPG not getting it does not mean they get bumped off, but obviously in the above scenario AA would prioritize being booked for that flight over cabin actually booked.
So basically, in some cases AA would feel booking for a specific flight trumps fare code booked, and in some instances they may not with UPG vs Stby F. At the end of the day either is guaranteed what they paid for, the UPG pax is guaranteed a seat in Y like they booked, the F stdby pax is still guaranteed their F on the flight they bought, a different flight. Argument can go either way... Both terms say they can standby for F, one via their status the other via their ticket.
So basically it becomes which is more important to AA, being on the flight and using loyalty status, or not being on that flight, instead a later flight, but fare code.
So basically, in some cases AA would feel booking for a specific flight trumps fare code booked, and in some instances they may not with UPG vs Stby F. At the end of the day either is guaranteed what they paid for, the UPG pax is guaranteed a seat in Y like they booked, the F stdby pax is still guaranteed their F on the flight they bought, a different flight. Argument can go either way... Both terms say they can standby for F, one via their status the other via their ticket.
So basically it becomes which is more important to AA, being on the flight and using loyalty status, or not being on that flight, instead a later flight, but fare code.
First, I don’t think there is any intrinsic value placed on being booked on a particular flight when we’re talking about competing for available space. Obviously, AA has an incentive not to kick people off of flights on which they have booked and are expecting to fly, but that’s completely different from the situation we are discussing here, which is one where there is open space to which people want access. I think given that anyone (at least in economy) can do a SDCFC to any other flight as long as there is E space shows that AA doesn’t place particular value on being booked on a particular flight when there is open space available. The fact that the SDCFC policy is different for first class shows not that AA necessarily wants those in first to stay on their particularly booked flight but that AA wants to protect—and hence better monetize—the more limited space in first class.
Assuming that it is true that AA places no particular value on being booked on a particular flights when it comes to competing for open space (they just want not to have to kick people off of flights), the question becomes which group of people should have priority when there is available space in F: (a) the people who have status/loyalty, or (b) the people who have paid for F. I think AA has shown again and again, especially over the last few years, that it values the people who pay for F over the people who have status but aren’t willing to pay for F. Even putting aside the fairness/normative arguments, the fact that AA reimburses those who pay for F but end up flying in Y on a different flight means AA has more of an incentive to get paying F passengers in F, even if on a different flight, than to make sure people with status get upgraded.
Dec 21, 2017, 3:24 pm
#97
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Dallas/Orlando
Programs: AA EXP
Posts: 2,716
Standby DFWMCO tonight. Originally I was #15 on list but after discussing with AC agent she marked me as “RF” and I jumped to 1. At gate, GA said she spoke to her supervisor and Y>J upgrades are to be processed first. So I have a seat in coach, but am grateful, as I have my confirmed seat prior to boarding and won’t have to fight for overhead space.
Dec 21, 2017, 8:30 pm
#98
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Charlotte, NC USA
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Posts: 309
There seems to be GREAT confusion over the true policy. I had this same thing happen to me as the OP but I ended up with the First Class seat. I was paid first class (not complimentary upgrade) and stood by for an earlier flight. The agent told me that I would be standing by for the same class as service as I purchased. That is exactly what happened. I got to the gate. The upgrade wait list on the monitor did not even have my name on it. I was on the standby list on the monitor. There was one First Class seat open and I got it. Again, I was told, you standby for the same class as service that you buy.
Dec 21, 2017, 10:27 pm
#99
Join Date: Apr 2015
Programs: AA Gold, Enterprise PLT, Marriott Gold
Posts: 604
Sure does. Seems like it's up in the air, some Gate Agents apparently are doing confirmed Y>J first and some are doing RF first. Seems like it could be a crapshoot. AA needs to really make it's policy known on this and alleviate any confusion.
Dec 22, 2017, 3:40 am
#100
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: probably an airplane...
Programs: AA Lifer, and other stuff...
Posts: 40
Also like many others, I've gotten very inconsistent answers and outcomes -- essentially depending on "what the GA felt like doing."
I *will* say that when I call the EXP desk -- and get an *actual* EXP-trained person (I'm thinking ex-AA definition here) -- that person usually knows the proper rule.
I'm a major +1 for AA spelling out the rule clearly, on the website, and properly training its staff on how to follow it. I fully realize that AA has *many* things on which to train its staff to finish integration. I get that. But publishing the policy on the website would go a long way to helping, if at the very least so passengers could educate the GAs (not overrule them, just educate them -- obviously the GA's decision is binding under FAA regs -- for better or worse, the regs contemplate that situations are sorted out later*).
Bottom Line: AA, you would benefit by publishing as many of your policies, in clear, unambiguous language, on your website.
* There are exceptions under the Air Carrier Access Act, and (for the most part) I've been impressed with how AA has handled these. A few ex-US agents have needed some... educating... but I've never seen a situation *actually* get to the point of requiring involvement from the CRO.
Dec 22, 2017, 6:36 am
#101
Join Date: Jan 2003
Programs: American Airlines Platinum, National Executive
Posts: 3,790
Dec 22, 2017, 6:55 am
#102
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: BWI
Programs: AA EXP
Posts: 82
I think there should be corollaries to the Want First, Buy First slogan. “Want the earlier flight? Buy the earlier flight. Want a flexible ticket? But a flexible ticket.” OP didn’t have to sit in Y, they could have waited until their scheduled flight where they have a confirmed seat in J.
Dec 22, 2017, 9:14 am
#103
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 3,698
This thread is mostly reinforcing the notion that if I'm going to pay for domestic first, I should do it on Delta. It's generally cheaper, they pay you $200 plus the actual fare difference if they downgrade you, and they let you SDC if there's any seat for sale in F. AA seems to want you to pay a premium for a product that they're not nearly as consistent about actually delivering to you.
I agree with the general sentiment that at a minimum publishing these policies more clearly so people know what to expect would be a big help.
I agree with the general sentiment that at a minimum publishing these policies more clearly so people know what to expect would be a big help.
Dec 22, 2017, 12:56 pm
#104
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 27,234
Yes and the terms of an elite status member for loyalty shows upgrade eligible if open. That's exactly what elites pay for as well, their money and status allows them to standby for earlier flights or upgrading into F. You can easily make the argument Want First? Buy First for that specific flight, as well. The UPG paid for and purchased a seat on that specific flight, in Y, the F standby paid for an F seat in a different flight. Let's say hypothetically there are no upgrades at all somehow, but a flight is oversold by 1 seat only because one coach seat is innop and the only remaining seat open is F. The person booked on the flight with no seat is getting that seat before a standby F pax obviously. So in this case AA obviously feels getting the pax booked on that flight in Y deserves the F seat on that flight if they have to over someone who is merely standing by for earlier F. I mean makes since, you are booked on that flight you shouldn't be bumped off, they weren't. Now I realize a UPG not getting it does not mean they get bumped off, but obviously in the above scenario AA would prioritize being booked for that flight over cabin actually booked.
So basically, in some cases AA would feel booking for a specific flight trumps fare code booked, and in some instances they may not with UPG vs Stby F. At the end of the day either is guaranteed what they paid for, the UPG pax is guaranteed a seat in Y like they booked, the F stdby pax is still guaranteed their F on the flight they bought, a different flight. Argument can go either way... Both terms say they can standby for F, one via their status the other via their ticket.
So basically it becomes which is more important to AA, being on the flight and using loyalty status, or not being on that flight, instead a later flight, but fare code.
So basically, in some cases AA would feel booking for a specific flight trumps fare code booked, and in some instances they may not with UPG vs Stby F. At the end of the day either is guaranteed what they paid for, the UPG pax is guaranteed a seat in Y like they booked, the F stdby pax is still guaranteed their F on the flight they bought, a different flight. Argument can go either way... Both terms say they can standby for F, one via their status the other via their ticket.
So basically it becomes which is more important to AA, being on the flight and using loyalty status, or not being on that flight, instead a later flight, but fare code.
Jun 29, 2018, 9:16 am
#105
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: RDU
Posts: 2,264
Here's my situation from this week.
Arrived from an international flight into DFW. My booked connection (in paid J) was about 3 hours later, but made it to the gate about 45 minutes before an earlier flight so requested to be put on the standby list.
Expertflyer showed J3/Y7, so I figured I'd get on the flight. GA tells me upfront that it looks good to get on the flight, but not in first.
About 10 minutes before boarding, she clears me into Y (in a middle seat). About 5 minutes later, she processes 2 upgrades. I went back to the desk, assuming a better seat had now opened up, and sure enough, got exit row aisle.
Absent of understanding the official AA rules, it feels that as I was on a paid J ticket, and was cleared onto the flight before the upgrades were processed, I likely should have been entitled to a first class seat. Note that I was probably the only CK on the flight since nobody else pre-boarded with me, so almost certainly would have been top of the upgrade list.
Arrived from an international flight into DFW. My booked connection (in paid J) was about 3 hours later, but made it to the gate about 45 minutes before an earlier flight so requested to be put on the standby list.
Expertflyer showed J3/Y7, so I figured I'd get on the flight. GA tells me upfront that it looks good to get on the flight, but not in first.
About 10 minutes before boarding, she clears me into Y (in a middle seat). About 5 minutes later, she processes 2 upgrades. I went back to the desk, assuming a better seat had now opened up, and sure enough, got exit row aisle.
Absent of understanding the official AA rules, it feels that as I was on a paid J ticket, and was cleared onto the flight before the upgrades were processed, I likely should have been entitled to a first class seat. Note that I was probably the only CK on the flight since nobody else pre-boarded with me, so almost certainly would have been top of the upgrade list.