American's Response to OP.
"Since there are many changes and a limitless number of variables, we do not accept responsibility for expenses, delays, reroutings or other losses associated to international documentation." I suppose OP can dispute all CC charges paid to AA. Seems the merchant didn't provide the service OP paid for. |
Originally Posted by LHR/MEL/Europe FF
(Post 28216640)
Same as the HKG example I gave above - TWOV denied.
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Originally Posted by C17PSGR
(Post 28216649)
Perhaps you're missing the humor from the PVG-GRU routing ....it's a ticket to a third country but the routing goes back through the US :)
As for the nothing else counts and Chinese immigration doesn't care who you are, I'll respectfully disagree. Every day, hundreds (if not thousands) of pax use TWOV in China, perfectly fine. |
Originally Posted by LHR/MEL/Europe FF
(Post 28216650)
Japan.
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Originally Posted by JonNYC
(Post 28216659)
Right back to square one; Japan is not the destination on the OP's ticket, China is.
Originally Posted by LHR/MEL/Europe FF
(Post 28216650)
Japan.
Perhaps TIMATIC could reword their system for 'next onward flight' rather than 'destination'. So ... if I'm a gate agent in LAX and a passenger is going to Shanghai for three days and then returning to LAX with a two hour connection at NRT, do you really blame the gate agent for using Shanghai as the destination? And if I push the gate agent to use NRT as the destination, would it be unusual for the gate agent to tell me I'm trying to game the system? |
Originally Posted by C17PSGR
(Post 28216655)
That could be an example where the airline would let the pax fly and some of the TWOV advocate crowd believe Chinese immigration wouldn't let the person in.
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Originally Posted by C17PSGR
(Post 28216663)
If I use the destination of China, I get visa required. If I use the destination of Japan, I get the TWOV.
So ... if I'm a gate agent in LAX and a passenger is going to Shanghai for three days and then returning to LAX with a two hour connection at NRT, do you really blame the gate agent for using Shanghai as the destination? And if I push the gate agent to use NRT as the destination, would it be unusual for the gate agent to tell me I'm trying to game the system? If they were still unconvinced they had the other three options to satisfy themselves (calling AA in China, calling Shanghai immigration, signing an indemnity). |
Originally Posted by FlyingJay
(Post 28216345)
I also potentially see a Department of Transportation issue here. AA refusing to transport me on a valid itinerary and making me pay a higher fare seems like a DOT concern as well.
I get that claims court is not a guarantee but its a better option than this offer. |
Originally Posted by LHR/MEL/Europe FF
(Post 28216681)
Given that the gate agent was presented with advice from the Chinese embassy that the itinerary was legal, then yes, a gate agent should have wondered why they were getting an inconsistent result, and should have tried to replicate the embassy advice.
If they were still unconvinced they had the other three options to satisfy themselves (calling AA in China, calling Shanghai immigration, signing an indemnity). The agent, however, was using Timatic. I invite you to use Timatic, and use China as a destination -- United has a good site -- and see what result you get. Here are my results: Summary Conditional, The traveler will need to hold travel documents as detailed below. Type: Ok China - Destination Passport The following regulations apply to children/minors: Passport not required for children traveling with a parent or guardian if being registered in the passport of the companion. Type: Notice China - Destination Visa Visa required. **** If you don't like the Timatic results, this is really an issue for IATA. |
Originally Posted by C17PSGR
(Post 28216629)
So, I just did the same, and it concluded a visa was necessary.
What did you use for the destination country?
Originally Posted by JonNYC
(Post 28216659)
Right back to square one; Japan is not the destination on the OP's ticket, China is.
Although China is the destination in the practical sense, it's not the "destination" for Chinese visa purposes as long as the passenger has an onward air ticket departing no later than 144 hours later. |
Originally Posted by C17PSGR
(Post 28216663)
If I use the destination of China, I get visa required. If I use the destination of Japan, I get the TWOV.
So ... if I'm a gate agent in LAX and a passenger is going to Shanghai for three days and then returning to LAX with a two hour connection at NRT, do you really blame the gate agent for using Shanghai as the destination? And if I push the gate agent to use NRT as the destination, would it be unusual for the gate agent to tell me I'm trying to game the system? |
Originally Posted by FWAAA
(Post 28216732)
True, China is the destination. And if China is entered as the destination in Timatic, then the TWOV will not be shown. The only way to get Timatic to display the TWOV is to enter Japan or USA as the destination with PVG as the transit point. Fly to Japan within six days and China considers the 144 hour maximum stay in Shanghai as a "transit."
Although China is the destination in the practical sense, it's not the "destination" for Chinese visa purposes as long as the passenger has an onward air ticket departing no later than 144 hours later. |
Originally Posted by C17PSGR
(Post 28216743)
Won't this be fatal to any DOT complaint? Regardless of how Chinese immigration handles this, how does one persuade the DOT that AA should be penalized because the agent used China as the destination in this scenario.
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Originally Posted by JonNYC
(Post 28216750)
I personally can't fathom that part either.
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Originally Posted by C17PSGR
(Post 28216743)
Won't this be fatal to any DOT complaint? Regardless of how Chinese immigration handles this, how does one persuade the DOT that AA should be penalized because the agent used China as the destination in this scenario.
My question is how to get AA gate agents to recognize that visiting PVG (and some other Chinese cities) for up to 144 hours is permissible without a visa on certain itineraries. If the agent inputs PVG as the destination in Timatic, no other combination of inputs will result in the TWOV language appearing. Ergo, entering PVG as the destination does not result in valid results concerning the requirement to obtain a visa. |
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