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-   -   144 TWOV China- AA Issues/Questions (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/american-airlines-aadvantage/1837368-144-twov-china-aa-issues-questions.html)

FlyingJay Apr 17, 17 8:53 pm

144 TWOV China- AA Issues/Questions
 
My family and I were denied boarding an AA LAX to PVG flight because the check-in agent and supervisor said our return flight (PVG-NRT-LAX) did not count towards a third country as it was only a 90 minute layover. They both accused me of trying to "abuse" the system to avoid a Chinese Visa.

I even showed them a confirmed email from the Chinese Embassy acknowledging my itinerary was acceptable to qualify. I have read a few threads that this itinerary works and according to the TIMATIC guidelines, there is no mention of a mandatory stopover in the third country.

AA charged me an additional 2k+ to re-ticket the fare to include a stopover in NRT. I have submitted a formal complaint I am waiting for a response.

This was a nightmare experience as we missed the original flight due to the chaos and confusion at the check-in counter and were forced to stay a night in NRT for no reason. We encounter hundreds of dollars in additional expenses for hotels, food, changed reservations due to the missed flight. We incurred extra charges for Hotel stay in LAX for the missed flight and another hotel for Narita for the mandatory stopover. We also incurred hundreds of dollars for the ancillaries like extra parking charges for the extended nights and all sorts of other expenses due to AA mistake.

What is the best avenue to re-coup all these expenses?

rjw242 Apr 17, 17 8:56 pm

Sorry to hear you had a bad experience, but without more detail it's kind of hard for anyone here to assess what happened. Specifically, how long was your time in PVG? From the wording it sounds like you had a 90-minute connection in NRT, but for visa purposes wouldn't the time in China be the most important factor?

FlyingJay Apr 17, 17 9:08 pm


Originally Posted by rjw242 (Post 28193525)
Sorry to hear you had a bad experience, but without more detail it's kind of hard for anyone here to assess what happened. Specifically, how long was your time in PVG? From the wording it sounds like you had a 90-minute connection in NRT, but for visa purposes wouldn't the time in China be the most important factor?

We were in China for much less than 144 hours. The denied boarding was based off the return flight. AA said the layover in NRT did not count and thus denied us baording without a Visa.

matrixwalker2012 Apr 17, 17 9:15 pm

Sometime I wonder if checking in for international flights and documents check should be handled in the days before a flight by having the pax submit passport numbers, visa numbers, picture uploads, etc and having it all done online and at the airport, the airline only verifies the documents submitted are in the passenger's possession.

Sometimes dealing with these airport agents when stressed for time can lead to very bad mistakes being made when an agent decides to go make up their own rule. Once, I already had boarding passes issued and docs checked hours before and only had to come back to check a bag and had to deal with the agent wanting to recheck everything. It's stressful having to deal with airport agents these days who cannot be bothered to properly do their jobs.

mvoight Apr 17, 17 9:40 pm

I am confused.
• Duration of stop in third country is irrelevant (e.g., LAX-PVG-NRT-LAX is compliant, even if NRT stop is for only a few hours)
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/chin...er-thread.html

What info is AA looking at that shows a stay of a certain length is required?

FlyingJay Apr 17, 17 9:55 pm


Originally Posted by mvoight (Post 28193666)
I am confused.
• Duration of stop in third country is irrelevant (e.g., LAX-PVG-NRT-LAX is compliant, even if NRT stop is for only a few hours)
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/chin...er-thread.html

What info is AA looking at that shows a stay of a certain length is required?

The Agent and supervisor had no idea. They kept reading the TIMATIC guidelines trying to figure things out. They just kept saying I was trying to avoid a Visa for China. They also said because I wasn't going anywhere other than China I shouldn't qualify for a TWOV for China.

JonNYC Apr 17, 17 9:56 pm

This is most definitely -not- my forte, but I'll take a stab at it.

I think you were given wrong explanation, in a way.

TWOV requires travel to a third Country-- not a return to origin, so LAX to PVG followed by a return of PVG-NRT-LAX-- without that stopover in NRT, is, in fact, not a proper use of China TWOV.
You needed a actual Visa because you were actually visiting China.

But will defer to actual experts here.

Dave Noble Apr 17, 17 9:57 pm

I can see what the agent's argument is - whether it is valid , I am unsure

The passenger's journey was actually a r/t to PVG with just a connection back to origin at NRT

LAX-PVG , PVG-LAX via NRT. Given that LAX-PVG is further than LAX-NRT, it is a r/t to PVG and not a transit onwards to Tokyo

With a 90 minute transit, the passenger is not destined for that 3rd country and will not clear immigration, customs etc

JonNYC Apr 17, 17 10:04 pm


Originally Posted by FlyingJay (Post 28193707)
...They also said because I wasn't going anywhere other than China I shouldn't qualify for a TWOV for China.

They were correct about that.


Originally Posted by Dave Noble (Post 28193714)
I can see what the agent's argument is - whether it is valid , I am unsure

The passenger's journey was actually a r/t to PVG with just a connection back to origin at NRT

LAX-PVG , PVG-LAX via NRT. Given that LAX-PVG is further than LAX-NRT, it is a r/t to PVG and not a transit onwards to Tokyo

With a 90 minute transit, the passenger is not destined for that 3rd country and will not clear immigration, customs etc

And I'm thinking that as the issue-- not officially entering the alleged Country of destination, just transiting there.

nutwpinut Apr 17, 17 10:06 pm

I have not done it, but I have been thinking of doing it as a mileage run and from my understanding this is legitimate for 72 hours or less; however, it is a known risk the FAs and GAs do not know the rules correctly.

Ooops, I'm sorry were you on the 72 or 144?

ordsky Apr 17, 17 10:06 pm

Onward travel to a third country allows for a 72 hours stay in China. Can't be used if you are returning to your country of origin.

JonNYC Apr 17, 17 10:15 pm

I'm getting some knowledgeable guidance here;


China was, indubitably, the destination here, not a transit point. You don't qualify for a transit without visa if you're not transiting, obviously.
My impression now is that people can and do occasionally get away with this but that the LAX agents were correct to insist in the change routing to technically comport with the TWOV rules.

IggySD Apr 17, 17 10:18 pm


Originally Posted by mvoight (Post 28193666)
I am confused.
• Duration of stop in third country is irrelevant (e.g., LAX-PVG-NRT-LAX is compliant, even if NRT stop is for only a few hours)
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/chin...er-thread.html

What info is AA looking at that shows a stay of a certain length is required?

From the Chinese side they don't care about the length of the transit. The only things that are required to be eligible are that your total time in PRC is less than the amount allowed in whichever city you are transiting in, and that you depart to a different country than you arrive from.

Unfortunately, many AA ticket agents are ignorant of the actual requirements and take the word "transit" literally so that if you're on a round-trip via NRT one way they refuse to consider that a transit in China, rather it's a transit in Japan. Although technically correct, this should not be relevant to the requirements for eligibility.

I had this same issue come up in January and was denied check in on a SAN-LAX-PEK-NRT-LAX-SAN itinerary. I called the EXP desk during the process, had someone from there talking to the check in agent explaining that the itinerary was fine, that the only way to get TIMATIC to show that the visa was not necessary was to list PEK as a transit rather than the destination but the agent refused. Escalation to several other people in the SAN airport did no good as they insisted a visa was necessary. It was extremely frustrating but I eventually decided to just give up as it was just a weekend getaway to burn an expiring eVIP. If it had been a necessary trip I'm not sure what I would have done but probably would have had to re-book as the OP did.

I immediately sent an email to CS explaining the situation and requesting that they ensure that all of their check in agents are trained on the actual TOV procedures. I had a response within a few hours apologizing and a complete refund was given within a week or two. I would encourage OP to do the same. Be polite, don't add any emotion to it, but don't mince words either - this is their fault. Simply state something to the effect of "Due to the lack of knowledge of your check in agents at LAX I was not allowed to check in for a trip that was applicable for TWV to China and was required to purchase a new itinerary for XXX reason. This required an additional, unnecessary expense of $XXXX and would appreciate it if you would refund that amount and ensure that your employees are properly trained so that this does not occur again"

Sadly, it's still a risk to try to do this since it does require a bit of thought to understand so if you get a check in agent who is incapable of independent thought you may be SOL (and apparently I'm still really bitter about this since I spent so much time writing this!) But, in my case at least, AA immediately made it right with no further discussion.

FlyingJay Apr 17, 17 10:20 pm

I have a email confirmation from the Chinese Embassy confirming my itinerary as qualifying. The TIMATIC guidelines say I cannot have a DIRECT flight back to country of origin. PVG-NRT-LAX is an INDIRECT flight.


Originally Posted by IggySD (Post 28193780)
From the Chinese side they don't care about the length of the transit. The only things that are required to be eligible are that your total time in PRC is less than the amount allowed in whichever city you are transiting in, and that you depart to a different country than you arrive from.

Unfortunately, many AA ticket agents are ignorant of the actual requirements and take the word "transit" literally so that if you're on a round-trip via NRT one way they refuse to consider that a transit in China, rather it's a transit in Japan. Although technically correct, this should not be relevant to the requirements for eligibility.

I had this same issue come up in January and was denied check in on a SAN-LAX-PEK-NRT-LAX-SAN itinerary. I called the EXP desk during the process, had someone from there talking to the check in agent explaining that the itinerary was fine, that the only way to get TIMATIC to show that the visa was not necessary was to list PEK as a transit rather than the destination but the agent refused. Escalation to several other people in the SAN airport did no good as they insisted a visa was necessary. It was extremely frustrating but I eventually decided to just give up as it was just a weekend getaway to burn an expiring eVIP. If it had been a necessary trip I'm not sure what I would have done but probably would have had to re-book as the OP did.

I immediately sent an email to CS explaining the situation and requesting that they ensure that all of their check in agents are trained on the actual TOV procedures. I had a response within a few hours apologizing and a complete refund was given within a week or two. I would encourage OP to do the same. Be polite, don't add any emotion to it, but don't mince words either - this is their fault. Simply state something to the effect of "Due to the lack of knowledge of your check in agents at LAX I was not allowed to check in for a trip that was applicable for TWV to China and was required to purchase a new itinerary for XXX reason. This required an additional, unnecessary expense of $XXXX and would appreciate it if you would refund that amount and ensure that your employees are properly trained so that this does not occur again"

Sadly, it's still a risk to try to do this since it does require a bit of thought to understand so if you get a check in agent who is incapable of independent thought you may be SOL (and apparently I'm still really bitter about this since I spent so much time writing this!) But, in my case at least, AA immediately made it right with no further discussion.

Thank You! I will do exactly as you explain. I took my wife and kids to Shanghai Disney for Spring Break. I had no choice but to re-ticket as agent said.


Originally Posted by nutwpinut (Post 28193741)
I have not done it, but I have been thinking of doing it as a mileage run and from my understanding this is legitimate for 72 hours or less; however, it is a known risk the FAs and GAs do not know the rules correctly.

Ooops, I'm sorry were you on the 72 or 144?

144

Colin Apr 17, 17 10:27 pm

I would never attempt to fly the OPs routing & ticket.

I would get a 10 year CN visa for the peace of mind.

If I were going to attempt TVOV and wanted to use the indicated flights, I would be sure to book outbound as a one-way and return on a seperate ticket. Would then eticket a refundable J ticket PVG-SIN on SQ and use this ticket for LAX checkin as proof of eligibility for TWOV. Once in CN, cancel SQ tix for refund and fly AA home.

JonNYC Apr 17, 17 10:30 pm


Originally Posted by Colin (Post 28193811)
I would never attempt to fly the OPs routing & ticket.

No one should.


Originally Posted by FlyingJay (Post 28193790)
I have a email confirmation from the Chinese Embassy confirming my itinerary as qualifying. The TIMATIC guidelines say I cannot have a DIRECT flight back to country of origin. PVG-NRT-LAX is an INDIRECT flight.

But the rule is you must be in transit to a 3rd Country, you were not.

deskover54 Apr 17, 17 10:31 pm


Originally Posted by JonNYC (Post 28193710)
This is most definitely -not- my forte, but I'll take a stab at it.

I think you were given wrong explanation, in a way.

TWOV requires travel to a third Country-- not a return to origin, so LAX to PVG followed by a return of PVG-NRT-LAX-- without that stopover in NRT, is, in fact, not a proper use of China TWOV.
You needed a actual Visa because you were actually visiting China.

But will defer to actual experts here.

This sounds different than what is later stated in the thread. Has anyone clarified the correct terms of TWOV.

Also, what is the difference between the 72 and 144 versions?

IggySD Apr 17, 17 10:33 pm


Originally Posted by Colin (Post 28193811)
I would never attempt to fly the OPs routing & ticket.

I would get a 10 year CN visa for the peace of mind.

If I were going to attempt TVOV and wanted to use the indicated flights, I would be sure to book outbound as a one-way and return on a seperate ticket. Would then eticket a refundable J ticket PVG-SIN on SQ and use this ticket for LAX checkin as proof of eligibility for TWOV. Once in CN, cancel SQ tox for refund and fly AA home.

I'm not sure if this would work. From the way it was explained to me, the only way to get TIMATIC to show the applicable rule is to list China as a transit point. I have a suspicion that you would run into the same issues where the AA agent is going to consider the city in PRC to be your destination unless you have a one way ticket LAX-PEK/PVG-XXX (non US city). I doubt they would take a separate ticket on a different carrier into consideration.

nutwpinut Apr 17, 17 10:35 pm

After skimming through the flyertalk thread on the matter:
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/chin...hread-101.html

Looks like it doesn't matter if it is 72 or 144, but it looks like it is still a possible issue with FAs and GAs unable to recognize a stopover is not necessary, just only need an indirect flight back to the country of origin.

Honestly, that is what has kept me from doing a mileage run to PEK. I'm afraid of getting an FA or GA that doesn't understand the rules and won't budge.

FlyingJay Apr 17, 17 10:36 pm


Originally Posted by JonNYC (Post 28193819)
No one should.



But the rule is you must be in transit to a 3rd Country, you were not.

What is funny is I got the idea for this routing through the TWOV flyertalk thread. Many travel blogs including FlyerTalk, TripAdviosr, and PointsGuy all mention the LAX-PVG-NRT-LAX route as acceptable.

rjw242 Apr 17, 17 10:38 pm


Originally Posted by FlyingJay (Post 28193838)
What is funny is I got the idea for this routing through the TWOV flyertalk thread. Many travel blogs including FlyerTalk, TripAdviosr, and PointsGuy all mention the LAX-PVG-NRT-LAX route as acceptable.

Acceptable, perhaps, but risky:


Originally Posted by nutwpinut (Post 28193837)
Looks like it doesn't matter if it is 72 or 144, but it looks like it is still a possible issue with FAs and GAs unable to recognize a stopover is not necessary, just only need an indirect flight back to the country of origin.

If you were aware of the threads, then you were almost certainly aware of the risks.

FlyingJay Apr 17, 17 10:40 pm


Originally Posted by FlyingJay (Post 28193838)
What is funny is I got the idea for this routing through the TWOV flyertalk thread. Many travel blogs including FlyerTalk, TripAdviosr, and PointsGuy all mention the LAX-PVG-NRT-LAX route as acceptable.

I also failed to mention that multiple calls to AA reservations prior to departure all resulted in saying my itinerary was good and that all I need was my passport at the gate.

I did not go into this blind. As mentioned before, I have documentation from Chinese Embassy approving the booked Itinerary.

sukn Apr 17, 17 10:40 pm

It is my understanding as well that duration of stop in the third country is irrelevant even if you are just transiting through it as the OP was planning to do in NRT.

nutwpinut Apr 17, 17 10:43 pm

This is from the China Visa Flyertalk wiki as of 15 Jan 2017:
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/chin...hread-151.html


• Duration of stop in third country is irrelevant (e.g., LAX-PVG-NRT-LAX is compliant, even if NRT stop is for only a few hours).

swiss_global Apr 17, 17 10:44 pm

I guess it depends not only on immigration control into China, but also on emigration control (China, unlike the US, does check your passport when departing from the country). So if you show up with a PVG-LAX boarding pass upon depature, I'm quite sure there will be a problem. If you have a PVG-NRT boarding pass, not mentioning LAX, you could probably get away with it. But I somehow understand that the AA agents didn't want to take the risk.

IggySD Apr 17, 17 10:45 pm


Originally Posted by JonNYC (Post 28193819)
No one should.



But the rule is you must be in transit to a 3rd Country, you were not.

Jon - I know you have good inside sources at AA but I would encourage you to get a second (or even third and fourth opinion) here as in my situation I received conflicting information from AA. I did a good bit of research while standing in line / trying to convince the agent and everything I found on line indicated that the term "transit" in this case merely refers to traveling to a third country. No requirements regarding the length of time in the third country. This was from from the regular blogs, as well as a law blog (I have no idea if he's really a lawyer but he specifically answers this question: http://lawandborder.com/china-72-hou...t-visa-waiver/ Additionally the Chinese embassy has a FAQ which does not specify any requirements for the length of the stay in the third country.

Additionally, since a refund was offered with no question and the response I received from CS was as close to an apology and acceptance of error from a corporation as I'm ever likely to see I have to assume that there are a significant number of people within AA who see it my way rather than yours (additionally, if you read the TWOV thread it is agrees with the interpretation I presented).

nutwpinut Apr 17, 17 10:47 pm

I am interested in how this works out because I do want to do this MR some day. From my understanding, this is legal, but confusing.

OP, please post back when you get your answer from AA.

JonNYC Apr 17, 17 10:47 pm


Originally Posted by FlyingJay (Post 28193838)
What is funny is I got the idea for this routing through the TWOV flyertalk thread. Many travel blogs including FlyerTalk, TripAdviosr, and PointsGuy all mention the LAX-PVG-NRT-LAX route as acceptable.

Yes, for sure-- that was quickly pointed out to me, that many folks have been told by many sources this is allowed and may succeed.

And, it may well be that one can prevail (either later as a poster upthread did, getting a refund) or even have a good % chance (probably a very good % chance) of not having this problem.

The section from TIMATIC states:

- Transit without visa (TWOV) is not permitted when the
passenger arrives AND departs on direct flights from/to USA
and USA territory Guam or Northern Mariana Isl.
I'm not sure where else in the section itself one can find an affirmative statement to help any check-in agent -not- assume that this is a visit to China, not a transit in China-- since that's exactly and precisely what it is. But it' true that many do say affirmatively "go for it!" and even go so far as to state that the rule -is- satisfied by the transit in NRT. Again, I'm no expert.

Where I -am- a bit of an expert in is how AA operates, and, I'd say the odds of AA "straightening out" it's check-in agents on this, to the extent that that's called for or not, is very close to zero.

FlyingJay Apr 17, 17 10:48 pm

答复: 144 Transit without Visa
Chinese Consulate in L.A. Visa and Passport Office to you show details

Hello,
the itinerary looks good. And for more information, please visit the following website: http://www.sh-immigration.gov.cn/lis...?lx=40&id=4414

Shanghai General Station of Immigration Inspection
www.sh-immigration.gov.cn
To support the construction of Shanghai Science and Technology Innovation Center, sanctioned by the State Council, Shanghai is to adopt a 144-hour visa-exemption ...

Visa and Passport Office
Chinese Consulate in Los Angeles
Add: 3rd Floor, 500 shatto place Los Angeles ,CA,90020
Tel: 213-201-1765
Fax: 213-380-0372
Office Hour: 9:00-14:00, Monday to Friday (Holidays excluded)

________________________________________
发件人:
发送时间: 2017年3月23日 3:04
收件人: [email protected]
主题: 144 Transit without Visa

Hello,

Does the following airline itinerary qualify for the 144 hour visa-free transit? We are staying at the Disneyland hotel and not leaving the city.

Thank You for your help


Sunday, April 9, 2017

LAX

PVG

11:25 AM
4:25 PM

Los Angeles
Shanghai Pu Dong


American Airlines 183
Seats: -- , -- , -- , --
Class: Economy (O)
Meals: Lunch/dinner



________________________________________

Friday, April 14, 2017

PVG

NRT

11:50 AM
3:50 PM

Shanghai Pu Dong
Tokyo Narita


Japan Airlines 874
Seats: -- , -- , -- , --
Class: Economy (O)
Meals:




NRT

LAX

5:25 PM
11:40 AM

Tokyo Narita
Los Angeles


American Airlines 170

nk15 Apr 17, 17 10:49 pm

I think you were technically correct, but it seemed (and was) one of those marginal cases open to debate/interpretation. Because it looked like (and was) that you were in essence wanted to travel to China, and relying on a technicality to get the TWOV. It was very risky and didn't work out. I would try to recoup loses from AA or travel insurance, but who knows if you will get anything back.

deskover54 Apr 17, 17 10:50 pm


Originally Posted by nutwpinut (Post 28193871)
I am interested in how this works out because I do want to do this MR some day. From my understanding, this is legal, but confusing.

OP, please post back when you get your answer from AA.

Also agree, want to see how it works out...however, why not just get a Chinese Visa. It's so simple. And its what like $150 for 10 years? Seems like a tiny investment.

FlyingJay Apr 17, 17 10:51 pm


Originally Posted by JonNYC (Post 28193872)
Yes, for sure-- that was quickly pointed out to me, that many folks have been told by many sources this is allowed and may succeed.

And, it may well be that one can prevail (either later as a poster upthread did, getting a refund) or even have a good % chance (probably a very good % chance) of not having this problem.

The section from TIMATIC states:


I'm not sure where else in the section itself one can find an affirmative statement to help any check-in agent -not- assume that this is a visit to China, not a transit in China-- since that's exactly and precisely what it is. But it' true that many do say affirmatively "go for it!" and even go so far as to state that the rule -is- satisfied by the transit in NRT. Again, I'm no expert.

Where I -am- a bit of an expert in is how AA operates, and, I'd say the odds of AA "straightening out" it's check-in agents on this, to the extent that that's called for or not, is very close to zero.

At one point the supervisor told me I needed an indirect flight TO PVG based on this part of TIMATIC

FlyingJay Apr 17, 17 10:53 pm


Originally Posted by nk15 (Post 28193880)
I think you were technically correct, but it seemed (and was) one of those marginal cases open to debate/interpretation. Because it looked like (and was) that you were in essence wanted to travel to China, and relying on a technicality to get the TWOV. It was very risky and didn't work out. I would try to recoup loses from AA or travel insurance, but who knows if you will get anything back.

Im hoping AA will take care of it. The re-ticketing fee should be at least refunded. I did book with the Chase Reserve Card that has trip insurance. Not sure if this would qualify.

ORD2NRT Apr 17, 17 10:54 pm

People are confusing practice with policy.

In practice, weak enforcement by Chinese officials and airline staff have allowed many itineraries to work just fine for Chinese TWOV. People come and go pretty easily.

In policy, many itineraries that "work" aren't really allowable. It doesn't even require a deep reading of the rules. It's in the name of the policy - TRANSIT without visa. The name in and of itself differentiates between a destination country and a transit country. Many of these itineraries have China as the destination. You do not qualify for a transit without a visa if China is actually your destination.

Again - policy vs practice. In practice, yeah, the trip would likely have been fine if you could talk the agent into listing China as your transit point (even thought it clearly isn't) and the fact that many Chinese officials could care less what your travel plans actually are. But in policy, no - you're doing it wrong.

So really everyone is "right".

no2chem Apr 17, 17 10:55 pm


Originally Posted by JonNYC (Post 28193819)
No one should.



But the rule is you must be in transit to a 3rd Country, you were not.

Well, that certainly depends on what your definition of transit is. It's pretty clear that people have different definitions of "layover" and "stopover" too. China's definition clearly says as long as you don't return to the same country you originated from, that counts as transit.

Anyway I have a 10 year business visa now, but I've done TWOV at PVG many times without issue. I think this is either a product of the make up your own rules culture at AA, or perhaps people having issues at PEK. Unless people are actually getting turned back, not sure what's in it for AA to stop people.

I had a problem once, but the key is to convince the agent to not put in China as the final destination in TIMATIC. Which I guess, would be pretty hard to convince, with a 30m layover.

JonNYC Apr 17, 17 10:56 pm


Originally Posted by IggySD (Post 28193866)
Jon - I know you have good inside sources at AA but I would encourage you to get a second (or even third and fourth opinion) here as in my situation I received conflicting information from AA. I did a good bit of research while standing in line / trying to convince the agent and everything I found on line indicated that the term "transit" in this case merely refers to traveling to a third country. No requirements regarding the length of time in the third country. This was from from the regular blogs, as well as a law blog (I have no idea if he's really a lawyer but he specifically answers this question: http://lawandborder.com/china-72-hou...t-visa-waiver/ Additionally the Chinese embassy has a FAQ which does not specify any requirements for the length of the stay in the third country.

Additionally, since a refund was offered with no question and the response I received from CS was as close to an apology and acceptance of error from a corporation as I'm ever likely to see I have to assume that there are a significant number of people within AA who see it my way rather than yours (additionally, if you read the TWOV thread it is agrees with the interpretation I presented).

I totally hear ya. Although "length of the stay in the third country" I'd still say is misleading a bit-- and more importantly very likely to trip up check-in agents-- as there is NO "length of the stay in the third country" on a transit in said country.

I definitely defer to those who say they've succeeded and even those who say the rule can be/should be/is often-- or even -is- that technically that transit in NRT solves all. But I'm steadfast in my opinion that winning that argument with a check-in agent will get no easier, until/unless the language in TIMATIC changes.

sukn Apr 17, 17 10:58 pm


Originally Posted by ORD2NRT (Post 28193891)
So really everyone is "right".

OP claims he had an email from the Chinese embassy. How much more right can one get than that?

FlyingJay Apr 17, 17 10:59 pm


Originally Posted by deskover54 (Post 28193884)
Also agree, want to see how it works out...however, why not just get a Chinese Visa. It's so simple. And its what like $150 for 10 years? Seems like a tiny investment.

Times 4 people... Obviously I would have rather done that had I known this was going to be an issue. I mean its LAX. They run LAX-PVG every single day. It took them over two hours to finally tell me they would not honor the itinerary. They were completely confused. HAd they told me staright upfront I could have still made the flight that day and not lost an extra day of our trip.

FlyingJay Apr 17, 17 10:59 pm


Originally Posted by sukn (Post 28193901)
OP claims he had an email from the Chinese embassy. How much more right can one get than that?

I tried to post it but needs moderator approval.

ORD2NRT Apr 17, 17 11:01 pm


Originally Posted by sukn (Post 28193901)
OP claims he had an email from the Chinese embassy. How much more right can one get than that?

An email from someone working at an embassy is not sufficient documentation of anything. Someone from a US Embassy can issue you a visa and CIS can still turn you away at the border. It's just an email.


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