rumor : new upgrade co-payment effective 01dec04
Dec 14, 2004, 10:27 pm
#661
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: DFW
Programs: AAEXP, and every other one on the planet
Posts: 319
PS: Reply to sender is rejected
Note: My attempt at a rebutal to the outdated form letter was rejected, shows how they really value my opinion...
Originally Posted by dittymau
SoCalPLT, does this look familiar? (Received Tue 12/14/2004 12:40 PM from the WeCaare response machine...)
[I]We understand your objections to the $250 co-payment on AAdvantage® Upgrade Awards between North America and Europe, Japan and deep South America. Before we announced this change we carefully considered the impact on our members. We are convinced that there was no better alternative.
The reality today is that the disparity between discount and premium class fares is too great to be offset by miles alone. The addition of a co-pay allows members to continue to use their miles to upgrade to the next class of service even if they
purchase discounted tickets. If instead we were to raise the mileage level, many
members would have less opportunity to upgrade since it would require them to have
more miles available. Since members already can use straight mileage awards for
travel in our premium cabins, we felt it was important to keep Upgrade Awards at relatively low mileage levels for those who want to combine the award with a revenue ticket.
It is clear that customers want low fares and still want the opportunity to upgrade them. Supplementing that low fare with a co-pay enables members to continue to upgrade for the same amount of mileage they are accustomed to. At the same time, the co-pay enables us to continue to make our premium cabins available for mileage upgrades, even on discount fare tickets. The alternative would be to restrict Upgrade Awards for use only with full-fare tickets, which clearly would reduce the opportunity for our members to use their miles to upgrade.
That is the direction taken by most of our competition. The majority of carriers do not permit Upgrade Awards in conjunction with many discount economy fare tickets, restricting their use to only the highest fare classes. And the one carrier that does permit mileage upgrades from heavily discounted fares charges $200-$450, based on the price of the purchased ticket. American's Upgrade Awards will continue to be highly competitive, and provide exceptional value, even when the co-pay is implemented later
this year.
Thank you for contacting us about this important issue -- allowing us the opportunity to explain. You are a valued customer and your feedback is always welcome.
[I]We understand your objections to the $250 co-payment on AAdvantage® Upgrade Awards between North America and Europe, Japan and deep South America. Before we announced this change we carefully considered the impact on our members. We are convinced that there was no better alternative.
The reality today is that the disparity between discount and premium class fares is too great to be offset by miles alone. The addition of a co-pay allows members to continue to use their miles to upgrade to the next class of service even if they
purchase discounted tickets. If instead we were to raise the mileage level, many
members would have less opportunity to upgrade since it would require them to have
more miles available. Since members already can use straight mileage awards for
travel in our premium cabins, we felt it was important to keep Upgrade Awards at relatively low mileage levels for those who want to combine the award with a revenue ticket.
It is clear that customers want low fares and still want the opportunity to upgrade them. Supplementing that low fare with a co-pay enables members to continue to upgrade for the same amount of mileage they are accustomed to. At the same time, the co-pay enables us to continue to make our premium cabins available for mileage upgrades, even on discount fare tickets. The alternative would be to restrict Upgrade Awards for use only with full-fare tickets, which clearly would reduce the opportunity for our members to use their miles to upgrade.
That is the direction taken by most of our competition. The majority of carriers do not permit Upgrade Awards in conjunction with many discount economy fare tickets, restricting their use to only the highest fare classes. And the one carrier that does permit mileage upgrades from heavily discounted fares charges $200-$450, based on the price of the purchased ticket. American's Upgrade Awards will continue to be highly competitive, and provide exceptional value, even when the co-pay is implemented later
this year.
Thank you for contacting us about this important issue -- allowing us the opportunity to explain. You are a valued customer and your feedback is always welcome.
Dec 15, 2004, 4:32 pm
#662
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 317
I got a reply
Originally Posted by dittymau
Note: My attempt at a rebutal to the outdated form letter was rejected, shows how they really value my opinion...
Dear Mr. SoCalPLT:
Thanks for your additional comments. I am sorry that you feel that it will be too expensive for you to upgrade with the implementation of a co-pay on one-way Upgrade Awards used with most discount and deep discount economy fare tickets between North America and Europe, Japan and deep South America. You are right, demand for this product will undoubtedly drop due to a reluctance to pay the additional fee and we know this is controversial among out members. You can be sure that we will continue to monitor this aspect of our service.
Please understand that even with lower demand, we expect there will still be a significant number of customers for whom these awards are a very good value. For many individuals who benefit from low discount fares, the prospect of using their miles plus $250 to travel in business class on a transatlantic flight is still attractive, especially compared with the cost of the business class fare.
If you cannot justify the additional expense in both directions, you may want to consider upgrading one-way only, depending on which direction you feel you would benefit more from premium service and comfort. That's one way to lower the overall cost of your travel without completely giving up the luxury of our International Flagship Service in business class.
Even with the addition of a co-pay, these awards are still very competitive. Most other carriers do not permit mileage upgrades to be used with their lowest discount fares, as we and one other carrier do. Co-pays on that carrier vary from $200 - $450. Clearly, only you can decide how much you are willing to pay to upgrade your travel. We hope that in your analysis you will consider the total overall price and continue to favor us with your business. Moreover, we hope you will still find a way to treat yourself to the enhanced experience of traveling in our premium cabins.
Sincerely,
########### (name removed)
Customer Relations
American Airlines
Thanks for your additional comments. I am sorry that you feel that it will be too expensive for you to upgrade with the implementation of a co-pay on one-way Upgrade Awards used with most discount and deep discount economy fare tickets between North America and Europe, Japan and deep South America. You are right, demand for this product will undoubtedly drop due to a reluctance to pay the additional fee and we know this is controversial among out members. You can be sure that we will continue to monitor this aspect of our service.
Please understand that even with lower demand, we expect there will still be a significant number of customers for whom these awards are a very good value. For many individuals who benefit from low discount fares, the prospect of using their miles plus $250 to travel in business class on a transatlantic flight is still attractive, especially compared with the cost of the business class fare.
If you cannot justify the additional expense in both directions, you may want to consider upgrading one-way only, depending on which direction you feel you would benefit more from premium service and comfort. That's one way to lower the overall cost of your travel without completely giving up the luxury of our International Flagship Service in business class.
Even with the addition of a co-pay, these awards are still very competitive. Most other carriers do not permit mileage upgrades to be used with their lowest discount fares, as we and one other carrier do. Co-pays on that carrier vary from $200 - $450. Clearly, only you can decide how much you are willing to pay to upgrade your travel. We hope that in your analysis you will consider the total overall price and continue to favor us with your business. Moreover, we hope you will still find a way to treat yourself to the enhanced experience of traveling in our premium cabins.
Sincerely,
########### (name removed)
Customer Relations
American Airlines
Last edited by Plato90s; Dec 30, 2004 at 8:44 am
Dec 15, 2004, 5:00 pm
#663
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 42,058
wow, that letter was just too funny, especially the one-way upgrade suggestion.
personally, i'd have a lot more respect for the company if they stopped trying to sugarcoat policy changes and would, instead, come clean a la continental. in other words, if they don't want my business, they could at least be honest about it.
personally, i'd have a lot more respect for the company if they stopped trying to sugarcoat policy changes and would, instead, come clean a la continental. in other words, if they don't want my business, they could at least be honest about it.
Dec 15, 2004, 5:04 pm
#664
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 317
My reply to Wendy
Here is the email I sent back to Wendy at AA:
Reply from: Customer Relations, American Airlines "Even with the addition of a co-pay, these awards are still very competitive. Most other carriers do not permit mileage upgrades to be used with their lowest discount fares, as we and one other carrier do."
My reply to your statement: I contacted your competition to see how accurate your statement was.
For an LAX-LHR in June I could fly UA on an H fare for $996RT and upgrade for 30,000 each way. Their lowest fare $936RT for that route and days is not upgradeable.
On AA for the same dates the lowest fare is $928RT plus $500RT for the upgrades and 50,000 miles. $1428 v. $996 is NOT very competitive.
Even using "less" miles your fares are not competitive. UA has an upgradeable fare of $1636RT for 30,000 miles RT while AA's lower mileage upgradeable fare is $2499 RT.
You may want to make sure the person who came up with this cockamamie charge is not on one of your competitors payrolls.
As I said in my previous email, the reason why I left UA after over 15 years as an 1K flyer was AA's policy of upgrading from discount fares. Now that your policy has changed so will the company I choose to fly.
My reply to your statement: I contacted your competition to see how accurate your statement was.
For an LAX-LHR in June I could fly UA on an H fare for $996RT and upgrade for 30,000 each way. Their lowest fare $936RT for that route and days is not upgradeable.
On AA for the same dates the lowest fare is $928RT plus $500RT for the upgrades and 50,000 miles. $1428 v. $996 is NOT very competitive.
Even using "less" miles your fares are not competitive. UA has an upgradeable fare of $1636RT for 30,000 miles RT while AA's lower mileage upgradeable fare is $2499 RT.
You may want to make sure the person who came up with this cockamamie charge is not on one of your competitors payrolls.
As I said in my previous email, the reason why I left UA after over 15 years as an 1K flyer was AA's policy of upgrading from discount fares. Now that your policy has changed so will the company I choose to fly.
Last edited by Plato90s; Dec 30, 2004 at 8:43 am
Dec 15, 2004, 11:27 pm
#665
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: DFW, 3.5 MM, AA EXP, LIFETIME PLATINUM, MARRIOTT LIFETIME PLATINUM, STARWOOD AMBASSADOR 223 NIGHTS, AND LIFETIME GOLD, HILTON DIAMOND, NATIONAL EXECUTIVE ELITE
Posts: 5,847
Originally Posted by SoCalPLT
I received a reply from the "form" letter sent out by AA. This one appears to be written by a person unless the computer is prone to mis-spellings. Her solution ... just upgrade 1 way. My solution, fly another airline.
Dear Mr. SoCalPLT:
Thanks for your additional comments. I am sorry that you feel that it will be too expensive for you to upgrade with the implementation of a co-pay on one-way Upgrade Awards used with most discount and deep discount economy fare tickets between North America and Europe, Japan and deep South America. You are right, demand for this product will undoubtedly drop due to a reluctance to pay the additional fee and we know this is controversial among out members. You can be sure that we will continue to monitor this aspect of our service.
Please understand that even with lower demand, we expect there will still be a significant number of customers for whom these awards are a very good value. For many individuals who benefit from low discount fares, the prospect of using their miles plus $250 to travel in business class on a transatlantic flight is still attractive, especially compared with the cost of the business class fare.
If you cannot justify the additional expense in both directions, you may want to consider upgrading one-way only, depending on which direction you feel you would benefit more from premium service and comfort. That's one way to lower the overall cost of your travel without completely giving up the luxury of our International Flagship Service in business class.
Even with the addition of a co-pay, these awards are still very competitive. Most other carriers do not permit mileage upgrades to be used with their lowest discount fares, as we and one other carrier do. Co-pays on that carrier vary from $200 - $450. Clearly, only you can decide how much you are willing to pay to upgrade your travel. We hope that in your analysis you will consider the total overall price and continue to favor us with your business. Moreover, we hope you will still find a way to treat yourself to the enhanced experience of traveling in our premium cabins.
Sincerely,
########### (name removed)
Customer Relations
American Airlines
Thanks for your additional comments. I am sorry that you feel that it will be too expensive for you to upgrade with the implementation of a co-pay on one-way Upgrade Awards used with most discount and deep discount economy fare tickets between North America and Europe, Japan and deep South America. You are right, demand for this product will undoubtedly drop due to a reluctance to pay the additional fee and we know this is controversial among out members. You can be sure that we will continue to monitor this aspect of our service.
Please understand that even with lower demand, we expect there will still be a significant number of customers for whom these awards are a very good value. For many individuals who benefit from low discount fares, the prospect of using their miles plus $250 to travel in business class on a transatlantic flight is still attractive, especially compared with the cost of the business class fare.
If you cannot justify the additional expense in both directions, you may want to consider upgrading one-way only, depending on which direction you feel you would benefit more from premium service and comfort. That's one way to lower the overall cost of your travel without completely giving up the luxury of our International Flagship Service in business class.
Even with the addition of a co-pay, these awards are still very competitive. Most other carriers do not permit mileage upgrades to be used with their lowest discount fares, as we and one other carrier do. Co-pays on that carrier vary from $200 - $450. Clearly, only you can decide how much you are willing to pay to upgrade your travel. We hope that in your analysis you will consider the total overall price and continue to favor us with your business. Moreover, we hope you will still find a way to treat yourself to the enhanced experience of traveling in our premium cabins.
Sincerely,
########### (name removed)
Customer Relations
American Airlines
1. "You are right, demand for this product will undoubtedly drop due to a reluctance to pay the additional fee and we know this is controversial among out members. You can be sure that we will continue to monitor this aspect of our service". Obviously, if they "knew this" and were really "monitoring this aspect", they would have not had done it in the first place. Give me a break - this is so insulting to one's intelligence.
2. "The luxury of our International Flagship Service in business class". This is a complete joke - the "luxury" disappeared years and years ago. I won't even go there re: meal and staffing level cutbacks in 777 J. (i.e. I hardly see the "luxury" of 2 FAs serving 30 passengers, both of whom virtually completely dispapear afetr the meal service).
3. "We hope that in your analysis you will consider the total overall price and continue to favor us with your business". This satement is ludicrous, and an insult to the reader. If she had read the customer's letter, she would have realized he had considered "the total overall price" and decided it was a ripoff.
Last edited by Plato90s; Dec 30, 2004 at 8:42 am
Dec 15, 2004, 11:44 pm
#666
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Palm Springs ca
Programs: aa lifetime platinum
Posts: 747
bye- bye AA for me
has anyone been fuming at the idea of tacking on a payment to redeem an award ? When we spent our hard-earned money to be faithful customers, they certainly did not let us know of those plans, and now its 500 dollars each time to use a certain award they know we like to use to get us to higher fare classes? to get us to use free tickets? to get more money out of us? any of the above?
I'm voting with my feet. not another paid AA flight for me. They made a big mistaake. I havve 3 international bA upgrades to their club class which turn out cheaper than the AA upgrade policy - 3 trips on them planned in 2005 that I would have taken on American and several domestic trips on other carriers that are frankly more convenient for me than American but i used to be loyal ,no more.
Incidentally. bA club is very nice compared to Americans business class- a better value for upgrading anyway although their program takes getting used to. sorry for the rant. but thats what we're all doing.
I'm voting with my feet. not another paid AA flight for me. They made a big mistaake. I havve 3 international bA upgrades to their club class which turn out cheaper than the AA upgrade policy - 3 trips on them planned in 2005 that I would have taken on American and several domestic trips on other carriers that are frankly more convenient for me than American but i used to be loyal ,no more.
Incidentally. bA club is very nice compared to Americans business class- a better value for upgrading anyway although their program takes getting used to. sorry for the rant. but thats what we're all doing.
Dec 15, 2004, 11:59 pm
#667
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: DFW, 3.5 MM, AA EXP, LIFETIME PLATINUM, MARRIOTT LIFETIME PLATINUM, STARWOOD AMBASSADOR 223 NIGHTS, AND LIFETIME GOLD, HILTON DIAMOND, NATIONAL EXECUTIVE ELITE
Posts: 5,847
Originally Posted by marbles dad
has anyone been fuming at the idea of tacking on a payment to redeem an award ? When we spent our hard-earned money to be faithful customers, they certainly did not let us know of those plans, and now its 500 dollars each time to use a certain award they know we like to use to get us to higher fare classes? to get us to use free tickets? to get more money out of us? any of the above?
I'm voting with my feet. not another paid AA flight for me. They made a big mistaake. I havve 3 international bA upgrades to their club class which turn out cheaper than the AA upgrade policy - 3 trips on them planned in 2005 that I would have taken on American and several domestic trips on other carriers that are frankly more convenient for me than American but i used to be loyal ,no more.
Incidentally. bA club is very nice compared to Americans business class- a better value for upgrading anyway although their program takes getting used to. sorry for the rant. but thats what we're all doing.
I'm voting with my feet. not another paid AA flight for me. They made a big mistaake. I havve 3 international bA upgrades to their club class which turn out cheaper than the AA upgrade policy - 3 trips on them planned in 2005 that I would have taken on American and several domestic trips on other carriers that are frankly more convenient for me than American but i used to be loyal ,no more.
Incidentally. bA club is very nice compared to Americans business class- a better value for upgrading anyway although their program takes getting used to. sorry for the rant. but thats what we're all doing.
Seriously, I'm sure you won't be the only one and I don't blame you a bit. I have no intention of taking any more AA intl. flights myself.
Last edited by Plato90s; Dec 30, 2004 at 8:46 am
Dec 16, 2004, 7:49 am
#668
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Scarsdale, NY USA; LT PLT AA; AA 3 mm (4 mm will never happen); Hilton Diamond, Marriott Silver, AA is clueless why I fly
Posts: 754
Originally Posted by freeupgrade
I have no intention of taking any more AA intl. flights myself.
Personally, no matter how much they 'monitor' the copay trend, I don't think it will ever be rolled back ....... unless the competition loosens their international upgrade rules.
Next up: $125 copay to upgrade domestic each way (just a prediction. not based on anything I have read or heard!)
Dec 17, 2004, 6:13 pm
#669
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 317
Wendy writes again
Here is the latest and probably the last response I will get from my good friend Wendy at AA Customer Relations. I just hope she still has a job next year when AA starts losing business because of this decision and outsources it to India.
Dear Mr. SoCalPLT:
We've received your reply and regret that you are still unhappy with us. In Customer Relations, one of our most important responsibilities is to carefully relay customer issues to the appropriate departments and other senior management. Therefore, we thank you for your interest in American Airlines and your feedback.
As you might imagine, we are disappointed by your intention to travel with other airlines as a result of the upgrade co-pay. I am truly sorry you no longer believe American Airlines can satisfy your travel needs.
Mr. SoCalPLT, I hope that in time you will reconsider your decision. It would be our privilege to welcome you aboard once again.
Sincerely,
############# (name removed)
Customer Relations
American Airlines
We've received your reply and regret that you are still unhappy with us. In Customer Relations, one of our most important responsibilities is to carefully relay customer issues to the appropriate departments and other senior management. Therefore, we thank you for your interest in American Airlines and your feedback.
As you might imagine, we are disappointed by your intention to travel with other airlines as a result of the upgrade co-pay. I am truly sorry you no longer believe American Airlines can satisfy your travel needs.
Mr. SoCalPLT, I hope that in time you will reconsider your decision. It would be our privilege to welcome you aboard once again.
Sincerely,
############# (name removed)
Customer Relations
American Airlines
Last edited by Plato90s; Dec 30, 2004 at 8:41 am
Dec 17, 2004, 6:49 pm
#670
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,748
Originally Posted by SoCalPLT
Here is the latest and probably the last response I will get from my good friend Wendy at AA Customer Relations.
Dec 23, 2004, 12:02 pm
#671
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1
More on the $250 "co-pay"
It's unfortunate that they can't simply acknowledge that they need the money. What's unclear to me is whether they have followed the competition or not. Have UA, Continental et al done the same?
Incidentally, borrowing terminology from the health care system seems a strange move for a customer service program.
Incidentally, borrowing terminology from the health care system seems a strange move for a customer service program.
Dec 23, 2004, 12:09 pm
#672
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 42,058
Originally Posted by ak1000
Have UA, Continental et al done the same?
Incident.
Incident.
Dec 24, 2004, 10:00 am
#673
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: JFK/LGA
Programs: AA EXP/5 MM, BA Blue Bayou, HH LT Diamond
Posts: 5,828
Has anyone had an experience yet where the copay and the expedite fee would both be applicable, to see if AA has the chutzpah to try to collect them both?
Dec 24, 2004, 10:59 am
#674
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: New Orleans, AA EXP, DL PM, SPG PLT, HH Diamond
Posts: 3,750
Other carriers will probably implement a policy similar to AA's. If so, AA will likely not lose a significant amount of business over the long-haul.
Originally Posted by SoCalPLT
Here is the latest and probably the last response I willget from my good friend Wendy at AA Customer Relations. I just hope she still has a job next year when AA starts losing business because of this decision and outsources it to India.
Dear Mr. SoCalPLT:
We've received your reply and regret that you are still unhappy with us. In Customer Relations, one of our most important responsibilities is to carefully relay customer issues to the appropriate departments and other senior management. Therefore, we thank you for your interest in American Airlines and your feedback.
As you might imagine, we are disappointed by your intention to travel with other airlines as a result of the upgrade co-pay. I am truly sorry you no longer believe American Airlines can satisfy your travel needs.
Mr. SoCalPLT, I hope that in time you will reconsider your decision. It would be our privilege to welcome you aboard once again.
Sincerely,
############ (name removed)
Customer Relations
American Airlines
We've received your reply and regret that you are still unhappy with us. In Customer Relations, one of our most important responsibilities is to carefully relay customer issues to the appropriate departments and other senior management. Therefore, we thank you for your interest in American Airlines and your feedback.
As you might imagine, we are disappointed by your intention to travel with other airlines as a result of the upgrade co-pay. I am truly sorry you no longer believe American Airlines can satisfy your travel needs.
Mr. SoCalPLT, I hope that in time you will reconsider your decision. It would be our privilege to welcome you aboard once again.
Sincerely,
############ (name removed)
Customer Relations
American Airlines
Last edited by Plato90s; Dec 30, 2004 at 8:41 am
Dec 24, 2004, 11:08 am
#675
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: FIND ME ON TWITTER FOR THE LATEST
Posts: 27,730
I wonder: it's always been my assumption (and it think it's a supportable assumption for the most part) that the J cabin on many (or even most) flights was filled with a large % of upgraders. I wouldn't know if that % was 20%, 40%.. maybe even 50% or more on some flights? But a substantial chunk in any case, IMHO. Now that Dec 1st is long enough ago such that an increasing percentage of reservations will have to have been made after-- and therefore subject to the "co-pay"-- has anyone noticed, or do they expect to notice, substantially less crowded J cabins? Personally, I would expect a noticeable drop-- assuming of course that they don't just start doing more "courtesy" upgrades, etc. to fill up the seats.
Anyone have any predictions or observations? Yes, some will grudgingly (or even gladly?) pay the $250, but I would imagine that many more will do so only one-way and that people on cheaper fares-- leisure travelers for the most part-- won't see the $250 fee as doable. And, on the other end of the spectrum, those who have a bank of UA miles, etc. who won't see AA as the best option in some cases, especially when traveling on "non discount" economy fares-- where UA (and in limited cases, CO) are actually a better deal.
Anyone have any predictions or observations? Yes, some will grudgingly (or even gladly?) pay the $250, but I would imagine that many more will do so only one-way and that people on cheaper fares-- leisure travelers for the most part-- won't see the $250 fee as doable. And, on the other end of the spectrum, those who have a bank of UA miles, etc. who won't see AA as the best option in some cases, especially when traveling on "non discount" economy fares-- where UA (and in limited cases, CO) are actually a better deal.