Oops! AA flys AA31 LAX-HNL 31 Aug '15 with Airbus 321S, not ETOPS 321H
Sep 9, 2015, 11:50 pm
#46
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Because of this incident, I'm guessing AA will have to copy AS's lead, and paint some sort of additonal logo on the plane to indicate whether the plane is ETOPS certified that in case.
The following emblem:
<greyhound>
Could be superimposed on this:
<new AA "linoleum cutter blade" eagle logo>
To prevent the pilots, mechanics, and dispatchers from having another "oopsie" moment.
The following emblem:
<greyhound>
Could be superimposed on this:
<new AA "linoleum cutter blade" eagle logo>
To prevent the pilots, mechanics, and dispatchers from having another "oopsie" moment.
Sep 10, 2015, 1:47 am
#47
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On the contrary, the Pilot in Command (PIC) is the final authority. The PIC is responsible for preflight check. The PIC is responsible for insuring the aircraft is airworthy. The PIC is responsible to insure he/she knows everything about the aircraft, route, weather and airports of intended landing. I'm sure the feds have a few questions for the Captain, starting with "why didn't you verify the aircraft was airworthy for the mission?"
Does that absolve the entire team of dispatchers at that high tech, super fancy AA operations center in TX? No, it doesn't. They are also certified and responsible to insure the right aircraft is assigned to the route. But it is still the PIC's responsibility to validate what he gets from Operations and, if necessary, make changes.
Does that absolve the entire team of dispatchers at that high tech, super fancy AA operations center in TX? No, it doesn't. They are also certified and responsible to insure the right aircraft is assigned to the route. But it is still the PIC's responsibility to validate what he gets from Operations and, if necessary, make changes.
Isn't that like having the cockpit crew just taking the word of the fuelers that they loaded the required amount of fuel in the tanks for the flight?
There is a marking on the forward landing gear which says ETOPS. It isn't that hard to notice when you do a walk-around the plane.
There is a marking on the forward landing gear which says ETOPS. It isn't that hard to notice when you do a walk-around the plane.
What I'd love to know is: who finally figured out the mistake? Dispatcher? Apparently it was discovered in-flight, but beyond the point of turning back to the mainland.
Sep 10, 2015, 9:28 am
#49
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<snip>
The Captain receives all kinds of data from many different sources in preparation for a flight that he does not independently verify. Does the Captain count the number of passengers onboard? Does he count the number of bags loaded? Does he do his own weight & balance calculations? Does he do his own weather forecast? or does he just trust the numbers he's given within reason? Again I'll point out - according to APC, there is NO reference anywhere in the AA flight manuals and checklists to "ETOPS" being printed on the nosewheel or on the cover of the a/c logbook. If this was this pilot's first flight on the A321H, how would he know to look for those things? I realize that we'd like to answer something like "because he's been trained to look for those things," but the reality is the way that airline training programs have been certified makes it possible for a pilot to operate a specific sub-fleet within their category for the very first time on a live passenger flight. This happens everyday.
What I'd love to know is: who finally figured out the mistake? Dispatcher? Apparently it was discovered in-flight, but beyond the point of turning back to the mainland.
The Captain receives all kinds of data from many different sources in preparation for a flight that he does not independently verify. Does the Captain count the number of passengers onboard? Does he count the number of bags loaded? Does he do his own weight & balance calculations? Does he do his own weather forecast? or does he just trust the numbers he's given within reason? Again I'll point out - according to APC, there is NO reference anywhere in the AA flight manuals and checklists to "ETOPS" being printed on the nosewheel or on the cover of the a/c logbook. If this was this pilot's first flight on the A321H, how would he know to look for those things? I realize that we'd like to answer something like "because he's been trained to look for those things," but the reality is the way that airline training programs have been certified makes it possible for a pilot to operate a specific sub-fleet within their category for the very first time on a live passenger flight. This happens everyday.
What I'd love to know is: who finally figured out the mistake? Dispatcher? Apparently it was discovered in-flight, but beyond the point of turning back to the mainland.
I'm curious about how and when the discovery was made. Maybe mealtime with a "Er, Captain, the sheet says 'ceiling life rafts', but I'm not seeing any."
I still think my rubber duckie suggestion, with a matching "Remove before flight" placard over the yoke and nose gear pin flag would do the job, and look so cute...
Sep 10, 2015, 9:41 am
#50
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...
I'm curious about how and when the discovery was made. Maybe mealtime with a "Er, Captain, the sheet says 'ceiling life rafts', but I'm not seeing any."
I still think my rubber duckie suggestion, with a matching "Remove before flight" placard over the yoke and nose gear pin flag would do the job, and look so cute...
I'm curious about how and when the discovery was made. Maybe mealtime with a "Er, Captain, the sheet says 'ceiling life rafts', but I'm not seeing any."
I still think my rubber duckie suggestion, with a matching "Remove before flight" placard over the yoke and nose gear pin flag would do the job, and look so cute...
Sep 10, 2015, 9:45 am
#51
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I was assuming the FA would be looking in the AA issued tablet rather than paper product. Sorry. Messy duck.
Sep 10, 2015, 11:00 am
#52
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I suppose this is a new frame for the route.
Sep 10, 2015, 12:04 pm
#53
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This all could've been avoided if AA just stuck with the 757 on this route.
Sep 10, 2015, 1:01 pm
#54
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Sep 10, 2015, 1:56 pm
#55
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Again I'll point out - according to APC, there is NO reference anywhere in the AA flight manuals and checklists to "ETOPS" being printed on the nosewheel or on the cover of the a/c logbook. If this was this pilot's first flight on the A321H, how would he know to look for those things?
Sep 10, 2015, 6:33 pm
#56
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Sep 10, 2015, 6:37 pm
#57
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Want to know how to be removed from your next A321 LAX-HNL flight? Ask the Flight Attendant to remind the pilots to check to make sure the plane is an ETOPS A321H and not an A321S. 
Sep 10, 2015, 9:06 pm
#58
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Any PIC who removed a pax for asking the question is unfit to fly IMO. @:-)
Sep 10, 2015, 9:27 pm
#59
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" at the end of the post connotes humor.
Sep 10, 2015, 10:43 pm
#60
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I think there's actually a monetization opportunity here. Make the customers responsible for checking from the terminal to make sure ETOPS is clearly written on the nose gear door of the aircraft they're about to board. AA could then charge a fee (a flat rate collected from each customer on an individual flight) to handle this themselves without customer assistance.