Is there a way to tip off AA fraud department?
Dec 20, 2013, 6:36 pm
#61
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: London
Posts: 17,007
Dec 20, 2013, 6:42 pm
#62
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 1999
Posts: 12,097
It's not another matter, its exactly the point: are the T&C's legitimate in significantly obstructing our rights to direct our possession? In the case of alledgedly selling LH miles despite forbidden by LH's terms, the courts preliminary ruling was "yes too obstructing" despite being laid out and accepted by the possessor. I'm torn here as I do believe in the legitimate interest of the owner trying o protect his property but I also find the deliberately misleading marketing language of "earning" irritating. We implicitly or explicitly paid with real money for, neutral term, getting the miles. What we earn in return is a fluid something that is accounted for as something with a value justifying an immediate and specific imposition (like taxes) but no direct value to direct for us. Not to forget that they don't call it renting miles but buying miles. The latter usually implies a transfer of ownership.
My apologies if I come across a little fuzzy, English is not my first language.
My apologies if I come across a little fuzzy, English is not my first language.
With AA you actually 'own' the miles, but, under the current language (which is vastly different from the one when I signed up in 1984), "the accumulation of mileage credit does not entitle members to any vested rights with respect to such mileage credits, awards or program benefits."
It would be helpful if you explained what it means -- it seems to me that you own the mileage credit (in its abstract form) but not the right to redeem it for anything of value. In other words, you 'own' a number on a computer screen.
Dec 20, 2013, 6:48 pm
#63
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: BER, SAT, AUS
Programs: Feels like FO (AA EXP)
Posts: 1,611
It was LH being sued, so the responsible court was the higher regional court in cologne (might be an explanation why not in line with the feds). I am too waiting desperately for the public explanation for the ruling as well as LH announcing whether they do or wont escalate to a higher court.
Dec 20, 2013, 6:54 pm
#64
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 31
Thanks Madison Guy for the automated line tip...
First, you state that you now "know" you violated AA's T&C by selling your miles, but imply/state you did not know this at the time of the sale. But now you state you are well aware eBay disallows this action - and has "for years".
Something seems disconnected here - you claim to be totally innocent of any knowledge you were violating T&C (at the time of sale), but in full possession of the knowledge that a major website disallows the same. Or is this knowledge very recent (after you felt scammed and started started looking into this?) Perhaps you have done this before as much as you believe the "buyer" has "scammed" people before?
EDIT: If you honestly just screwed-up - for the first time - call AA an tell them the whole story. You won't get your miles back, but chances are good they won't do much else - as already posted. But they WILL look back at your account, and if they find this is not the first time you sold miles, expect severe sanctions, based on other reports here.
Anyway, no one has mentioned it, but with a PNR, flight, name, date - you can use the automated call-in system to cancel a reservation - I've done it (for myself) - and it was in in-progress itinerary. (I simply chose to take a bus home rather than wait for a flight hours later that would probably cancel due to weather anyway. The fact that I did cancel may be why AA refunded the cost of that segment. And no - the system did not recognize the phone I called from to assossciate me to the account)
Something seems disconnected here - you claim to be totally innocent of any knowledge you were violating T&C (at the time of sale), but in full possession of the knowledge that a major website disallows the same. Or is this knowledge very recent (after you felt scammed and started started looking into this?) Perhaps you have done this before as much as you believe the "buyer" has "scammed" people before?
EDIT: If you honestly just screwed-up - for the first time - call AA an tell them the whole story. You won't get your miles back, but chances are good they won't do much else - as already posted. But they WILL look back at your account, and if they find this is not the first time you sold miles, expect severe sanctions, based on other reports here.
Anyway, no one has mentioned it, but with a PNR, flight, name, date - you can use the automated call-in system to cancel a reservation - I've done it (for myself) - and it was in in-progress itinerary. (I simply chose to take a bus home rather than wait for a flight hours later that would probably cancel due to weather anyway. The fact that I did cancel may be why AA refunded the cost of that segment. And no - the system did not recognize the phone I called from to assossciate me to the account)
I know about the paypal thing because while I was in the process of selling the miles, a good friend of mine (and the one who told me about flyertalk in the first place) said that Paypal wouldn't be a good payment option for several reasons (one being he didn't think you could purchase miles with it). I have plenty of reasons to hate paypal as they are probably responsible for the single worst customer experience I have EVER had. No need to go into it here though.
This was my first time ever attempting ANYTHING with my miles. If it was easier to actually use them for travel, then I would likely have never reached the point of deciding that selling them would be a better use than flying with them. Also, I have known about buying and selling miles for years. An ex gf has done it quite a bit. She didn't however tell me that it was illegal.
Dec 20, 2013, 6:58 pm
#65
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 31
Hi Dave. Did you read the statute?
(1) that the defendant voluntarily and intentionally devised or participated in a scheme to defraud another out of money; CHECK
(2) that the defendant did so with the intent to defraud; CHECK
(3) that it was reasonably foreseeable that interstate wire communications would be used; CHECK and
(4) that interstate wire communications were in fact used) CHECK
clear enough yet?
Dec 20, 2013, 7:07 pm
#67
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Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Juneau, Alaska.
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If you feel you're in the right here just call AAdvantage customer service and see what, if anything, they will do. If you aren't concerned about how they will react about you trying to sell miles then just do it. Otherwise, just cancel the ticket as others have advised and be done with it.
Dec 20, 2013, 7:15 pm
#68
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 31
That doesn't accomplish my goal...
Words are wind :P
There are also quite a few opinions of what I can and can't do.
Some say I can cancel it myself.
Others say, no, that won't work
still others hint that the scammer can just call and have it reinstated
With regards to coming clean to AA.
some think I will be punished (and deserve it)
others thing that they will be lenient since it's my first time
Not very clear to me. I have some PMs though that should help and will report back when I move forward with whatever my ultimate decision is.
Last edited by pentelhos; Dec 20, 2013 at 7:18 pm Reason: spelling
Dec 20, 2013, 7:17 pm
#69
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Join Date: Mar 2013
Programs: DL PM, MR Titanium/LTP, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 10,130
This. Everything else in this thread seems to be noise. If you booked his ticket you have his name and his locator number. All you have to do is call up provide the information and cancel. Even if a leg has already been flown. Make up an excuse like "my mom got sick and I can't make the connecting flight now." You can glean every single bit of information they might request from the actual PNR that you can access online. Just call up as him and call from a phone that isn't connected to your AA account so that you'll just go to the general customer service line and they won't even have your account in front of them when you ask to cancel. If it doesn't work with the first agent HUACA. Just because one supervisor you called sometime today told you something doesn't mean it holds water. There are plenty of instances on all of the big 3 (AA/US, UA, and DL) where a simple HUACA solves the problem.
Dec 20, 2013, 7:19 pm
#70
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: ORD
Programs: AA EXP,2MM, DL Gold,Starwood PLT
Posts: 3,876
To clear a couple of things up...
I know about the paypal thing because while I was in the process of selling the miles, a good friend of mine (and the one who told me about flyertalk in the first place) said that Paypal wouldn't be a good payment option for several reasons (one being he didn't think you could purchase miles with it). I have plenty of reasons to hate paypal as they are probably responsible for the single worst customer experience I have EVER had. No need to go into it here though.
This was my first time ever attempting ANYTHING with my miles. If it was easier to actually use them for travel, then I would likely have never reached the point of deciding that selling them would be a better use than flying with them. Also, I have known about buying and selling miles for years. An ex gf has done it quite a bit. She didn't however tell me that it was illegal.
I know about the paypal thing because while I was in the process of selling the miles, a good friend of mine (and the one who told me about flyertalk in the first place) said that Paypal wouldn't be a good payment option for several reasons (one being he didn't think you could purchase miles with it). I have plenty of reasons to hate paypal as they are probably responsible for the single worst customer experience I have EVER had. No need to go into it here though.
This was my first time ever attempting ANYTHING with my miles. If it was easier to actually use them for travel, then I would likely have never reached the point of deciding that selling them would be a better use than flying with them. Also, I have known about buying and selling miles for years. An ex gf has done it quite a bit. She didn't however tell me that it was illegal.
Dec 20, 2013, 7:22 pm
#71
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: ORD
Programs: AA EXP,2MM, DL Gold,Starwood PLT
Posts: 3,876
This. Everything else in this thread seems to be noise. If you booked his ticket you have his name and his locator number. All you have to do is call up provide the information and cancel. Even if a leg has already been flown. Make up an excuse like "my mom got sick and I can't make the connecting flight now." You can glean every single bit of information they might request from the actual PNR that you can access online. Just call up as him and call from a phone that isn't connected to your AA account so that you'll just go to the general customer service line and they won't even have your account in front of them when you ask to cancel. If it doesn't work with the first agent HUACA. Just because one supervisor you called sometime today told you something doesn't mean it holds water. There are plenty of instances on all of the big 3 (AA/US, UA, and DL) where a simple HUACA solves the problem.
Dec 20, 2013, 7:25 pm
#72
Join Date: May 2009
Location: EUG
Programs: AS MVP, AA MM, HH Diamond, MR Gold
Posts: 8,229
If you have *that* many miles, just book AAnytime awards...how can it be "difficult" to use them? I'm sure you've got lots of real friends and relatives who would love such a gift if you can't use them yourself.
Dec 20, 2013, 7:26 pm
#73
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
This is most likely all part of a commercial ticket fraud operation. There are three scammers: 1) OP; 2) the guy who "bought" the miles from OP; and 3) somebody who paid $250 for an intl. ticket which should have cost $2,000. All three are co-conspirators in a wire fraud conspiracy. None will likely ever be prosecuted.
If OP actually does get around to cancelling the intl. segment, there will probably be a thread somewhere else from somebody ranting that AA wouldn't honor the $250 discount ticket they bought.
If OP actually does get around to cancelling the intl. segment, there will probably be a thread somewhere else from somebody ranting that AA wouldn't honor the $250 discount ticket they bought.
Dec 20, 2013, 7:56 pm
#74
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,606
Well, in this case it blew you out out of miles... 
Next time don't be so trustful and get something in concrete.
Your best option is to swallow the loss and forget about it, don't make your situation any worse. You win some and you lose some.... that's how it goes! @:-)
perdeu!
Next time don't be so trustful and get something in concrete.
Your best option is to swallow the loss and forget about it, don't make your situation any worse. You win some and you lose some.... that's how it goes! @:-)
perdeu!
Dec 20, 2013, 8:10 pm
#75
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: los angeles, calif.
Programs: Alaska Airlines Gold MVP
Posts: 7,170
I want the ticket cancelled and this scammer stopped from doing the same to another person. There is a decent amount of time until the next segment so I prefer to have as much information as possible before I decide what to do. As I've already stated, I don't see a moral problem with either selling or buying miles - as long as you aren't defrauding anyone. I know a lot of people have strong opinions about this but when people have to make real world decisions like violate T&Cs to pay the rent or to fly home and see family they wouldn't otherwise be able to afford to see, those opinions really don't matter. (btw, not insinuating those were my motivations)
Words are wind :P
There are also quite a few opinions of what I can and can't do.
Some say I can cancel it myself.
Others say, no, that won't work
still others hint that the scammer can just call and have it reinstated
With regards to coming clean to AA.
some think I will be punished (and deserve it)
others thing that they will be lenient since it's my first time
Not very clear to me. I have some PMs though that should help and will report back when I move forward with whatever my ultimate decision is.
Words are wind :P
There are also quite a few opinions of what I can and can't do.
Some say I can cancel it myself.
Others say, no, that won't work
still others hint that the scammer can just call and have it reinstated
With regards to coming clean to AA.
some think I will be punished (and deserve it)
others thing that they will be lenient since it's my first time
Not very clear to me. I have some PMs though that should help and will report back when I move forward with whatever my ultimate decision is.