Doppy

Presumably, AA gave the two upgrade seats to paying F pax who were on canceled flights. That sounds like good business sense to me. If there are really more pax than seats available, AA could just involuntarily deny boarding if necessary, and I'm sure they'd do that to a coach pax before they'd do it to a F pax.

I'd be willing to bet that if you had a confirmed upgrade they'd involuntarily deny you boarding for a full fare F elite if the cabin was overbooked and you wouldn't take a downgrade to coach. Sorry, but AA offers full fare first tickets for a huge premium, and priority over everyone else is a benefit of them.

I think it's a risk you take of trying to upgrade. Every now and then there might be a small problem.

d

FlyLots

Doppy

I agree with you that in my case that is probably what happened. I was downgraded as I didn't have a boarding card with the seats and full fare F's from cancelled/delayed flights probably got the seats. Don't have a problem with that per se, just the way it was handled.

As to your broader point. If F was oversold then Y elite pax shouldn't be given upgrade seats to begin with. If they were and a full fare F shows up then it's AA's problem to deal with an irate full fare F pax. i.e. They would have to be involuntarily bumped from the flight. At some point I think even an upgraded pax needs to be treated like any other pax in the same seat. Isn't this the same circumstance as if I (as PLAT) get upgraded literally at the last minute at the gate (happens all the time) because an F pax doesn't show up. Let's say they do show up right before the doors close - they would be told that they missed the check-in deadline and they couldn't get on the flight. I don't think it's good business to then get on the plane and move an upgraded pax back to coach to accommodate the F full fare. We're getting really theoretical here, but I can think of a number of circumstances where I as a PLAT (flying a combination of full Y on business and cheap fares on vacation) generate a lot more annual revenue than a full fare F who flies once or twice a year DFW-EWR.

I don't know if this gets at the idea that we elites have a "right" to an upgrade. But I do think that we elites, if we meet all the requirements (i.e. handing over stickers, within the required windows, etc.), have a right to be guaranteed the seat that we upgraded to. Taking your point to the extreme, should an EXP that got the upgrade at the 100 hour window be involuntarily downgraded when trying to board becuase one of the mythical "full fare F" pax showed up last minute and wanted to buy a seat?

[This message has been edited by FlyLots (edited 04-08-2002).]

[This message has been edited by FlyLots (edited 04-08-2002).]

Doppy

This situation comes up practically every day. It doesn't have to be in FC.

I was flying LAX-JFK standby for an earlier flight. There were plenty of people on the standby list, and a pax from Delta comes over with an AA special services rep who gets him on the flight immediately, ahead of everyone else on the list (they weren't even processing standbys at the time, just taking names).

What's so special about the DL pax? He had a $1700 one way ticket. If I were AA I'd do the same thing in that situation. My ticket was about $130 one-way, and I wasn't the slightest bit upset at them for getting that guy a seat.

Part of the reason the airlines can justify charing really high fares for unrestricted tickets is that they can come through for you in a bind. How long would you continue to pay big money for an unrestricted fare if you got denied boarding or downgraded a bunch of times?

Frankly, if you want to fly in F, buy a ticket for it. Otherwise in a pinch I think it's completely acceptable for you to be downgraded. When you buy a coach ticket, you just might have to fly coach.

"Boarding passes must be issued by an Airline Representative, subject to applicable seat availability and operational restrictions..."

How often does this really happen though? I have never heard of it happening to anyone else, and I think it's a small risk.

d

mattm00se

Quote:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Doppy:
Frankly, if you want to fly in F, buy a ticket for it. Otherwise in a pinch I think it's completely acceptable for you to be downgraded.

"In a pinch, you might have 2 sets of confirmed seats become unconfirmed, but that's okay since there was bad weather.."

They need to put that in the Membership info

[This message has been edited by mattm00se (edited 04-08-2002).]

SeAAttle

It seems to me that the worst part of this event was the "shut up and behave or I will have you 'randomly' screened" comment (quotes not intended to be attributed to the agent). If this attitude spreads, it can be used as a threat anytime an agent wants to do anything. Security and customer service need to be two separate issues; the former should never be used to browbeat passengers. At the least, I would hope that you will report the agent's behavior on this point. Of course, it is your word against hers, so perhaps we will need to start tape recording GA comments, as TrojanHorse suggested ("For quality control purposes, this conversation may be recorded"). But then again, that would likely be considered a security threat, invoke a random search, etc, etc.

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1MM AAPLT
Marriott Gold

Doppy

It is in the membership guide: "Boarding passes must be issued by an Airline Representative, subject to applicable seat availability and operational restrictions..."

That falls under "operational restrictions."

As far as losing the original coach seats - you can't really expect AA to hold both your first class seats and your coach seats until the flight closes on the slim chance that you'll lose the upgrade for some reason. I think that's unreasonable.

The only "issue" I see here is the possibility that the agent was threatening the original poster with the search that would make him miss his flight. That definitely needs to be followed up on, because it's incredibly inappropriate.

d

Savvy Traveler

i disagree... as i recall the EXP guide says that EXPs are given top priority for standby. i agree, doppy, that it makes perfect business sense for AA to take the passenger paying the huge fare. i simply (as others have stated) think that AA needs to be more honest about this in their terms and conditions. if they tell me to expect TOP priority standby as an EXP (which i hope to be one day) then i expect that to be the case.

HK-UMICH

The condition of the BP must be issused maybe the point. but apart from that, I would think a confirmed UG is confirmed, i.e. same status with other pax of same cabin. Oversold or get a walk-in passenger, no problem and good for AA. But then they should do voluntary downgrade by offering compensation. (remember the $1000 J-Y for NRT-USA?). If AA offer voucher for Downgrade, I think most of us (i.e. upgraded elite with coach tkt) are willing to "cooperate".

Last time on my flight ORD-DTW, they called for volunteer, they collected many Y BP (but need none finally) and I should up with my "A" BP, GA took it instantly with note "other volunteer", they said b'cos I am holding a premium BP (maybe they have a walk in F passenger waiting for a seat?)

Spyder

Flylots,

I too try to let things go when weather and uncontrollable factors put undue stress on AA staff, but regardless of your seat situation you shouldn't have been subject to a threat predicated upon an abuse of power, i.e. get on the plane now or we'll search you.

I flew dsm to dfw yesterday and was so verbally assaulted by an overwrought gate agent that the CSM saw fit to upgrade myself and my wife to first class as the first steps in apologizing for the very public slander I experienced.

I think it's become a little too easy for the folks working as customer service agents at the airlines to get "overwrought." I'd encourage you to plead your case. It's up to each of us to contest the notion that we should all shut up and keep our heads down in the interest of not drawing negative attention to ourselves while travelling.

Just because gate agents are in a hurry is not a good enough reason for them to dispense with policy and procedure.

DrHowser

I can confirm one thing...

I was flying paid F about 4 months or so ago. My flight was cancelled (not for weather, mechanical) from DFW to SEA. The next two flights were sold out (according to the EXP Desk) due to this one cancelation...

But, my paid F ticket allowed the EXP agent to confirm my seat on the phone. I can only assume that someone lost their upgrade seat. When I asked her how I got the seat on a sold out flight, she said not to worry. She gave me her name and told me to call her from the airport in case "the gate agent tried to take my seat back".

Hmmm...didn't really think about it at the time...

mapsmith

From the "New AA site"

Upgrade Terms & Conditions
&lt;snip&gt;
American Airlines reserves the right to eliminate or restrict the use of upgrades on certain flights and make other such changes at the time without notice. Purchased upgrade prices are subject to change at any time.
&lt;snip&gt;
Upgrade inventory is subject to seating limitations and capacity controls.
&lt;snip&gt;
Upgrades can be confirmed at the airport - if upgrade seating is available - two hours prior to the departure time of the flight. If a confirmed upgrade is not available, you may stand by for the upgrade.
Standby priority at the airport will be AAdvantage Executive Platinum members first, AAdvantage Platinum members second, AAdvantage Gold members next then other AAdvantage members.
&lt;snip&gt;
In the event of a cancellation or off-schedule operation, the applicable airline will attempt to honor your upgrade on another of its flights. &lt;snip&gt;

It seems to me, by my reading, that AA can cancel or eliminate upgrades entirely. But if they do, they are "Standby" upgrades and must be done during the 2 hour window.

EXP goes first, PLT next, etc. But dollars to donuts, Full Fare FC gets priority over anyone. That is just good business.

just my opinion.

777Brit

If your booking is still active, I can take a look at it and let you know, if you wish. Just drop me an e-mail. :-)



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Cheers, 777Brit
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300,000 miles and counting...!

FlyLots

Just wanted to wrap this up and let you all know the resolution.

I just received a call in my office from a very nice gentleman who identified himself as being from the Executive Office at AA.

He said that he had received my email from customer service and wanted to call personally to apologize. He basically confirmed that what I/we thought had happened really did, ie we were upgraded but not assigned seats and then F filled up. He hit all the right buttons with me by apologizing for the situation, explaining that unfortunately it happens sometimes and saying that the biggest problem was that it was totally mishandled by the gate agent. He then offered my partner and myself upgrade stickers as a sign of goodwill.

Importantly, he then went on to explain that he was most troubled by the security screening comments made by the gate agent. He asked if I had gotten her name/employee # (which unfortunatly I hadn't I was so steamed at the time). He then said that he was forwarding my complaint on to the DFW Station Manager (intimating he would do it in some "special" way rather than through the regular channels) and they would make sure that a reprimand was made and that they would raise the issue with all agents that such behavior is unacceptable.

This closes the issue for me and I have to admit I am extremely impressed with how AA handled this issue.

[This message has been edited by FlyLots (edited 04-10-2002).]

SeAAttle

Very impressive that AA handled this situation extremely well and expeditiously (2 days!). Thanks for letting us know the resolution. I hope this will encourage all of us not to cave in to an "overwrought" GA who threatens a security screen for no good reason.

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1MM AAPLT
Marriott Gold

JonNYC