kebosabi

ANA and DL flights from LAX leaves at 0000-0100. CX, OZ, KE also flies out of LAX to HKG and ICN at those hours past midnight. There are many flights to PEK and TPE on Air China and EVA Air at 2300-0000. They are packed.

Work all day, eat dinner at home, say goodbye to your spouse and kids, head to airport, leave past midnight, sleep on the plane, wake up and arrive in Asia early morning seems to work fine for many as it remains on the biological clock. Can't see why a 0200 JFK departure/0500 HND arrival can't work.

It really depends if you see it as 0200 (way too early in the morning), or see it more like "2600" (a two hour extension from the previous day).

FWAAA

While a 1 am or 2 am departure from NYC would not be ideal (connecting passengers to HND would have to sit around for a few hours in the lounges), what's even worse is the late departure from HND (10 pm or 11 pm or so) that gets back to JFK too late for a single connecting flight to anywhere in the USA. That's a nonstarter.

HND flights to/from the USA will not be viable until the carriers are permitted to select mainstream arrival/departure slots at HND.

kebosabi

HND is already operating at full cap during the daytime. Unless a new runway is built or an expansion of the existing int'l terminal is made at HND, the only option for AA is to deal with the restrictions in place. While there are plans for an additional runway and expansion of the international terminal at HND, it's not going to happen overnight at a snap of the finger.

If AA wants to keep HND , they have to deal with it for the time being and seriously consider landing early AM/departing late PM with parking planes at HND as a cost of doing business or figure out a way to lease the AA 777 planes to JL for them to use during the daytime.

Mind you AA wanted to fly JFK-HND, AA was the one that wanted the route, they applied to the USDOT to fly JFK-HND, and that's what they were given. They clearly understood the restrictions in place when applying for that route, it's AA's problem that they have to deal with it.

Or AA can forfeit JFK-HND that they were given from the DOT. I'm sure DL, HA or UA would be happy to gain them.

FWAAA

I thought a fourth runway opened a little more than a year ago.

In the first paragraph, you said that HND is "already operating at full cap during the daytime." In this paragraph, you repeat your idea that JAL could borrow AA's 777 and fly it somewhere during the day. I thought HND was operating a full capacity during the daytime. If that's true, then it would be physically impossible for AA's 777 to take off and land during the day, no? No capacity, right?

A late evening departure HND-JFK is a nonstarter because of the late night arrival at JFK, meaning no connection possibilities. The only way it would work would be to land at HND at about 0430 and takeoff just prior to 0700.

UA wanted to fly SFO-HND, and as formeraa pointed out, the HND restrictions are workable for west coast USA cities like SFO and LAX. Yes, AA wanted JFK and LAX and was aware of the restrictions.

Spiff

I am. Heck, that just means I can work even later before getting on a plane, or I can enjoy the NYC nightlife then head off to Asia.

Why is that a bad time?

kebosabi

The 4th runway, AKA "D-runway" opened a year ago.

There's a fifth and sixth runway plus another international terminal already in planning stages: http://chizuz.com/map/map45563.html (#1 is the 4th runway that opened a year ago, #2 and #3 are the two additional runways, #4 is the location of the second international terminal)

Eventually the current international terminal will be for OW and Skyteam as it's closer to Terminal 1 for JL, and the second international terminal will be for *A as it's closer to Terminal 2 used by NH.

However, these construction projects are not going to happen overnight moreso considering the technological difficulty of building them over water.

There's a chicken-and-egg situation at play at HND right now. One substantial reason why HND is at full cap right now during the day is because JL had to give up their gas-guzzling but large passenger load 747s because they went bankrupt.

As a result, JAL now has to rely on two or even three 767s or 737s to make up for the routes that were used to be flown on a single 747. While this does help JAL to be more cost efficient, it also put a strain on the capacity of HND during the day time. At the same time, since JAL is currently undergoing restructuring, they can't afford to buy or lease newer, more fuel efficient 777s which has higher passenger capacity than the 767s or the 737s.

There's a synergy that can be developed here if AA could lease their 777 to JL during the day time so that JL could instead run one 777 service in place of two 767s to places like HND-GMP/TSA/HKG/SHA or run one 777 in place of three 737s to some high cap intra-Japan routes.


There's two vantage points here: AA can view this from JFK or from HND's perspective.

Give restrictions that you can’t do anything about it: HND landing hours.

AA signed up for JFK-HND and it was granted to them. AA even applauded USDOT’s decision to grant them to fly that route.

Just because it’s not doing great as they expected it to doesn’t mean they can cry and whine about it; it just means they didn’t do their homework. They wanted it, they got what they asked for, they now have to deal with figuring out the right formula to make it work. If AA doesn’t want to operate it anymore, they are free to give it up as there are other US carriers that want them.

justforfun

I thought it was reported, at least anecdotally, that the HND flights were not doing so well in terms of pax numbers.

Living in NYC, I love the NRT flights. The HND flights are not an option at all, due to their horrid flight times. I'm not sure what strategy AA is using here, but they've definitely lost my business to Tokyo.

GadgetFreak

If they kept the lounges open I would be happy to do it. I have frequently taken the 11:30 PM JFK-LHR flight. Not that different.

Steve M

I don't see why this would have to involve a lease. AA could operate the flight with a JL codeshare, even under the assumption that most passengers would be originating in Japan and be JAL customers.

Is this even possible, regulation-wise? If you mean a dry lease (i.e. without crew), I'd be surprised if it would be allowed for an AA aircraft to have a couple of flights operated by non-AA pilots and then immediately be returned to AA service without some sort of inspection being done. If you mean a wet lease (i.e. with crew), then I'd be surprised that a foreign-crewed aircraft could operate a Japanese domestic route.

Also, a problem with either kind of lease is that I'd be surprised if a foreign-registered aircraft would be allowed to operate a domestic Japanese route.

FWAAA

I agree with the second part of your answer, but as to this part: with which slots would AA be able to take off and then land at HND on the short daytime tag flight?

AA has permission to land between something like 10 pm and 7 am and also has permission to take off during the same overnight off-peak hours. Dunno where AA would get more daytime slots for this short flight.

kebosabi

To my understanding, AA doesn't have 5th freedom flights to fly within Japan or out of the US using their pilots and crews, much as JL doesn't have 5th freedom rights to fly intra-US or US-other countries using their pilots and their crews. i.e: AA cannot fly HND-GMP or HND-CTS. JL cannot fly LAX-YVR or LAX-LAS.

What hasn't been discussed is the possibility where AA hands over its own aircraft to JL to use ex-Japan using JALs own crew, and vice-versa where JL hands off an aircraft for AA to use ex-USA using AAs own crew. Kinda like "you let me borrow your Ferrari when you don't need it and I'll let you borrow my Lamborghini when I don't need it."

Japanese LCCs such as Skymark dry leases their 767-200 aircrafts from carriers abroad and they fly within Japan. Can't see why not Japanese LCCs can do that and not JAL.

FWAAA

I have not read the open skies treaty between USA and Japan, but nearly every other open skies treaty permits fifth freedoms from that country to a third country. MAH4546 has previously posted that the USA-Japan treaty permits fifth freedoms to all carriers (not just the historic DL and UA rights they inherited/purchased from NW and Pan Am).

Of course AA could not sell tickets for an intra-Japan flight - that would be prohibited cabotage. But couldn't AA sell tickets on a Japan-SIN flight operated by AA on its own metal?

kebosabi

To my understanding about fifth freedom rights, the third country has to have fifth freedom as well to complete a perfect triangle.

For a full fifth freedom to be active, the rights have to apply at all parties. In the example of US-Japan-Korea, there's a fifth freedom between US and Japan, but is there a fifth freedom Open Skies agreement between Japan-Korea and US-Korea as well? Not at this moment, there isn't. US has one with Korea, check. Japan and Korea is working on it since last year, so right now it's a half-check, but not full-check yet.

What the US-Japan Open Skies currently permit is for US carriers to fly into any airport in Japan and vice-versa for Japanese carriers to fly into any airport in the US.

AA can choose to fly SAN-OKA direct if they wanted to link Camp Pendleton/San Diego Naval Base and the military personnel stationed at Okinawa, and likewise JL can fly NGO-DTW direct to link Aichi and Detroit to strengthen US-Japan car manufacturing partnerships.

What the US-Japan Open Skies does not permit is for AA to fly US-Japan-third country unless that third country also has their own open skies agreement with the US or Japan. A good example would be Thailand or Canada. AA could do US-HND-BKK if it wishes to as US-Japan-Thailand complete a perfect triangle where all parties have open skies with one another. JL could do Japan-YVR-JFK if it wishes to as Japan-Canada-US complete a perfect triangle as well.

DL and UA OTOH, is still immune from all this. What US-Japan Open Skies entailed is that AA got one step closer to the advantage DL and UA has, but still one step behind full immunity to do whatever they want. In that aspect, DL and UA has enjoyed a really great ride in the Asian market from their NW and PanAm agreements they inherited.

FWAAA

Correct, but that doesn't address my point, which is whether AA, US and CO gained fifth freedoms from Japan to third countries (where, of course, the USA and Japan would have to enjoy open skies).

I'm not talking about Korea. I asked about SIN (which has an open skies relationship with both Japan and USA).

FWAAA

Japan and Korea have open skies: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nb20101223a7.html

http://www.tokyotomo.com/article/en/...m-summer-2013/

Japan and SIN have open skies: http://airlineroute.net/2011/01/20/jpsg-bilateral-2011/