Hidden city ticketing dilemma, with QR and AS
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lihue, HI, USA
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Posts: 1,111
Hidden city ticketing dilemma, with QR and AS
I have an interesting dilemma with a planned big family trip over the holidays this year. My wife, son, and I are traveling with extended family to Southern Africa, meeting up for a stopover in Johannesburg with extended family, before we all fly together to Botswana.
I found a decent deal on Qatar Airways in business class PDX-SEA-DOH-JNB-DOH-SEA-PDX, departing 12/19 and arriving back in Portland on 1/1. (It was only about twice the cost my brother is paying for similar flights in coach, but transiting through Europe instead of DOH.) The PDX-SEA and SEA-PDX legs are of course on AS metal. I'm MVP Gold 75K and my wife and son are both MVP Gold. This part of the trip is set, but we are trying to plan the rest of our son's holiday break from college.
Right now our plan after arrival back in the United States is to immediately travel to Whistler to do some skiing with Canadian friends for most of a week. Our DOH-SEA flight is scheduled to arrive at 11:50 AM, and the SEA-PDX flight is scheduled to depart at 2:00 PM and arrive at 2:54 PM. I can book a separate AS ticket PDX-SEA-YVR on 1/1, departing 4:45 PM, arriving at YVR at 10:17 PM. But preferably, we want to drive to Whistler that night. Obviously, it would be a lot more convenient to simply drop the last SEA-PDX leg, and instead fly SEA-YVR directly. There is a 3:40 PM flight SEA-YVR, arriving at 4:48 PM. There is a ticket cost savings of about $200 per ticket versus booking the PDX-SEA-YVR flight. But the convenience is more important than the cost. There is also a direct PDX-YVR flight on Air Canada, with a 6 PM departure and 7:19 PM arrival. Although we generally prefer to fly Alaska, in this case, the much earlier arrival and cheaper flight would make this our likely choice. But it would still be way better to get into YVR at 4:48 PM than 7:19 PM, as we could be in Whistler in time for a late dinner at our friends' house.
We won't have checked bags, and if we did presumably we would need to pick them up in SEA to go through customs and immigration.
I'm generally aware of hidden city ticketing rules by airlines, and that QR and AS would frown on us dropping the last SEA-PDX leg. But when I go to Qatar Airways' website, there isn't even an option for me to change our flight to see what the fare difference would be to fly to YVR instead of PDX. While I'm a seasoned traveler domestically, I have less international travel experience, and I've never dealt with a situation even remotely like this one. Here are my questions:
I found a decent deal on Qatar Airways in business class PDX-SEA-DOH-JNB-DOH-SEA-PDX, departing 12/19 and arriving back in Portland on 1/1. (It was only about twice the cost my brother is paying for similar flights in coach, but transiting through Europe instead of DOH.) The PDX-SEA and SEA-PDX legs are of course on AS metal. I'm MVP Gold 75K and my wife and son are both MVP Gold. This part of the trip is set, but we are trying to plan the rest of our son's holiday break from college.
Right now our plan after arrival back in the United States is to immediately travel to Whistler to do some skiing with Canadian friends for most of a week. Our DOH-SEA flight is scheduled to arrive at 11:50 AM, and the SEA-PDX flight is scheduled to depart at 2:00 PM and arrive at 2:54 PM. I can book a separate AS ticket PDX-SEA-YVR on 1/1, departing 4:45 PM, arriving at YVR at 10:17 PM. But preferably, we want to drive to Whistler that night. Obviously, it would be a lot more convenient to simply drop the last SEA-PDX leg, and instead fly SEA-YVR directly. There is a 3:40 PM flight SEA-YVR, arriving at 4:48 PM. There is a ticket cost savings of about $200 per ticket versus booking the PDX-SEA-YVR flight. But the convenience is more important than the cost. There is also a direct PDX-YVR flight on Air Canada, with a 6 PM departure and 7:19 PM arrival. Although we generally prefer to fly Alaska, in this case, the much earlier arrival and cheaper flight would make this our likely choice. But it would still be way better to get into YVR at 4:48 PM than 7:19 PM, as we could be in Whistler in time for a late dinner at our friends' house.
We won't have checked bags, and if we did presumably we would need to pick them up in SEA to go through customs and immigration.
I'm generally aware of hidden city ticketing rules by airlines, and that QR and AS would frown on us dropping the last SEA-PDX leg. But when I go to Qatar Airways' website, there isn't even an option for me to change our flight to see what the fare difference would be to fly to YVR instead of PDX. While I'm a seasoned traveler domestically, I have less international travel experience, and I've never dealt with a situation even remotely like this one. Here are my questions:
- In this situation, how likely is Alaska Airlines to "punish" us for dropping the final leg? My general understanding is that an occasional dropped leg isn't a bid deal, but airlines can ban passengers or remove mileage earnings for repeated offenses.
- Would booking a separate ticket SEA-YVR that overlaps our SEA-PDX flight make it more likely that Alaska would find out and take action? I could book SEA-YVR on AC instead of AS to avoid this.
- Is there any possibility to go to the Alaska counter at SEA or to call Alaska after arrival in SEA to change the final leg from SEA-PDX to SEA-YVR? Obviously there would be a risk of the flight being booked.
- Are there other possibilities that I haven't thought of, or do you have any other suggestions?
- This last question is unrelated to my hidden city ticketing dilemma, but I thought I would ask for clarification. When I first booked the Qatar Airways flights, I thought that we would be able to earn Alaska miles for the flights, which would help tremendously with status qualification. But after checking Alaska's website, it looks like we only earn AS miles on QR flights booked via Alaska as codeshare flights. Has anyone ever been able to earn AS miles on QR flights booked at qatarairways.com? (I looked at booking the flights at alaskaair.com, but Alaska doesn't offer the flights as codeshare flights.)
#2
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,841
I would just book the AC flight SEA-YVR. I've dropped the last AS leg in similar circumstances without consequence.
You definitely earn eqms on QR flights. Look further down the page: https://www.alaskaair.com/content/mi...partners-qatar
You definitely earn eqms on QR flights. Look further down the page: https://www.alaskaair.com/content/mi...partners-qatar
#3
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: YYF/YLW
Programs: AA, DL, AS, VA, WS Silver
Posts: 5,951
Why not just drive from SEA straight to Whistler? That would get you to Whistler about the time the earlier flight arrives in YVR, never mind the later or much later flights. And with multiple people in a rental car compared to buying multiple plane tickets, it may be cheaper, though it depends a good bit on how you plan to get back. (A one way car rental from the US to Canada would likely be very expensive if it’s possible at all.)
I wouldn’t worry much at all about skipping SEA-PDX as the last flight on the ticket as a one-off. I would worry more about having an impossible booking on AS (flying SEA-PDX and SEA-YVR at the same time), especially if your frequent flyer numbers are in both reservations. Not a factor if you buy the AC flight.
I wouldn’t worry much at all about skipping SEA-PDX as the last flight on the ticket as a one-off. I would worry more about having an impossible booking on AS (flying SEA-PDX and SEA-YVR at the same time), especially if your frequent flyer numbers are in both reservations. Not a factor if you buy the AC flight.
#4
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 10,904
Just to be technically accurate, this is not hidden city ticketing and does not break any TOS.
The prohibition is against booking something that you have no intention of flying. That's different than booking something that you intend to fly, and later having your plans change.
Does QR really not provide a way to make changes online?
The prohibition is against booking something that you have no intention of flying. That's different than booking something that you intend to fly, and later having your plans change.
Does QR really not provide a way to make changes online?
Last edited by VegasGambler; Oct 20, 2023 at 11:58 am
#5
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,610
If you're going to book the overlapping Alaska flight do it with slightly different name which is technically true e.g. "FirstName MiddleName" as the first name, and ofcourse do not add your mvp numbers in there at all.
Given that you're mvp though i wouldn't risk it and just book AC, no issues with that.
Given that you're mvp though i wouldn't risk it and just book AC, no issues with that.
#6
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lihue, HI, USA
Programs: Alaska MVP Gold 75K; Delta Silver Medallion (1MM); Hilton Gold; Marriott Gold; National Executive
Posts: 1,111
You definitely earn eqms on QR flights. Look further down the page: https://www.alaskaair.com/content/mi...partners-qatar
And thanks for your suggestion to take the AC flight SEA-YVR.
#7
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lihue, HI, USA
Programs: Alaska MVP Gold 75K; Delta Silver Medallion (1MM); Hilton Gold; Marriott Gold; National Executive
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Why not just drive from SEA straight to Whistler? That would get you to Whistler about the time the earlier flight arrives in YVR, never mind the later or much later flights. And with multiple people in a rental car compared to buying multiple plane tickets, it may be cheaper, though it depends a good bit on how you plan to get back. (A one way car rental from the US to Canada would likely be very expensive if it’s possible at all.)
I also looked at driving SEA to Whistler, and then driving back Whistler to YVR. But when I checked with National, they didn't have any cars available for a one-way trip between countries. I haven't checked other companies yet, but I'll keep looking to see if that's an option.
I wouldn’t worry much at all about skipping SEA-PDX as the last flight on the ticket as a one-off. I would worry more about having an impossible booking on AS (flying SEA-PDX and SEA-YVR at the same time), especially if your frequent flyer numbers are in both reservations. Not a factor if you buy the AC flight.
If you're going to book the overlapping Alaska flight do it with slightly different name which is technically true e.g. "FirstName MiddleName" as the first name, and ofcourse do not add your mvp numbers in there at all.
Given that you're mvp though i wouldn't risk it and just book AC, no issues with that.
Given that you're mvp though i wouldn't risk it and just book AC, no issues with that.
#8
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lihue, HI, USA
Programs: Alaska MVP Gold 75K; Delta Silver Medallion (1MM); Hilton Gold; Marriott Gold; National Executive
Posts: 1,111
Just to be technically accurate, this is not hidden city ticketing and does not break any TOS.
The prohibition is against booking something that you have no intention of flying. That's different than booking something that you intend to fly, and later having your plans change.
The prohibition is against booking something that you have no intention of flying. That's different than booking something that you intend to fly, and later having your plans change.
When I go to change the ticket online, the website doesn't let me change the origin, just the destination. I could probably call to change it. But I'm quite sure that due to how international ticket pricing is done especially for business class tickets, if the change could be made it will cost thousands of dollars more (probably at least $6,000 for the three tickets). So it's not worth it. I'd rather take the flight all the way to Portland and then take AC direct PDX-YVR, if I decide not to drop SEA-PDX.
#9
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 10,904
When I go to change the ticket online, the website doesn't let me change the origin, just the destination. I could probably call to change it. But I'm quite sure that due to how international ticket pricing is done especially for business class tickets, if the change could be made it will cost thousands of dollars more (probably at least $6,000 for the three tickets). So it's not worth it. I'd rather take the flight all the way to Portland and then take AC direct PDX-YVR, if I decide not to drop SEA-PDX.
You should be able to figure this out yourself. Just look at your fare basis, read the rules (to make sure it's combinable as a half round trip, and that open jaws are allowed) and see if you can find a similar one from SEA. If it's too late to get the same pricing (due to advance purchase requirements) you can wait until you start travel; that will cause historical fares (ie, the fares at the time of booking) to be used to price the half-round-trip return.
#10
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: YYF/YLW
Programs: AA, DL, AS, VA, WS Silver
Posts: 5,951
When I go to change the ticket online, the website doesn't let me change the origin, just the destination. I could probably call to change it. But I'm quite sure that due to how international ticket pricing is done especially for business class tickets, if the change could be made it will cost thousands of dollars more (probably at least $6,000 for the three tickets). So it's not worth it. I'd rather take the flight all the way to Portland and then take AC direct PDX-YVR, if I decide not to drop SEA-PDX.
#11
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lihue, HI, USA
Programs: Alaska MVP Gold 75K; Delta Silver Medallion (1MM); Hilton Gold; Marriott Gold; National Executive
Posts: 1,111
That seems highly unlikely. What about how the tickets are priced makes you think that? Are you thinking that you would be charged for two one ways? Because that's not the case ... you would almost certainly be charged for two half-round-trips. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if it was a free change, or even got you a small credit.
You should be able to figure this out yourself. Just look at your fare basis, read the rules (to make sure it's combinable as a half round trip, and that open jaws are allowed) and see if you can find a similar one from SEA. If it's too late to get the same pricing (due to advance purchase requirements) you can wait until you start travel; that will cause historical fares (ie, the fares at the time of booking) to be used to price the half-round-trip return.
#12
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: SEA
Posts: 126
For what it's worth, Qatar's Conditions of Carriage says they care about whether you actually fly each leg, not intent when booking:
I was also curious about Alaska's rule (I know that doesn't apply to you but I fly them a lot). They have different language but again, the rule involves where you fly rather than intent:
3.4 Should you change your transportation without our agreement or fail to fly the complete itinerary booked, we will assess the correct price for your actual travel. You will have to pay any difference between the price paid and the total price applicable, together with any applicable administration charge, for your revised transportation.
I am not saying this would dissuade me from skipping the last leg. I was just curious about the rule.I was also curious about Alaska's rule (I know that doesn't apply to you but I fly them a lot). They have different language but again, the rule involves where you fly rather than intent:
7.E.3. ...Tickets may not be purchased and used at fare(s) from an initial departure point on the Ticket which is before the Passenger's actual point of origin of travel or to a more distant point(s) than the Passenger's actual destination being traveled, even when the purchase and use of such Tickets would produce a lower fare....
A later clause says that, in such a case, they can "assess the Passenger for the actual remaining value of the Ticket, which shall be no less than the difference between the fare actually paid and the lowest fare applicable to the Passenger's actual itinerary". It's not clear if this means they can charge you more than you already paid. It also, of course, says they can close your Mileage Plan account and impose other horrific punishments.
Last edited by seattlebruce; Oct 21, 2023 at 2:45 am
#13
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: LAX
Programs: MVP100K, A-list, Marriott/IHG Plat, CHP525 Ticket Plat, CHP Solo Carpool 100K, Costco EXP, Tinder 1K
Posts: 820
I have an interesting dilemma with a planned big family trip over the holidays this year. My wife, son, and I are traveling with extended family to Southern Africa, meeting up for a stopover in Johannesburg with extended family, before we all fly together to Botswana.
I found a decent deal on Qatar Airways in business class PDX-SEA-DOH-JNB-DOH-SEA-PDX, departing 12/19 and arriving back in Portland on 1/1. (It was only about twice the cost my brother is paying for similar flights in coach, but transiting through Europe instead of DOH.) The PDX-SEA and SEA-PDX legs are of course on AS metal. I'm MVP Gold 75K and my wife and son are both MVP Gold. This part of the trip is set, but we are trying to plan the rest of our son's holiday break from college.
Right now our plan after arrival back in the United States is to immediately travel to Whistler to do some skiing with Canadian friends for most of a week. Our DOH-SEA flight is scheduled to arrive at 11:50 AM, and the SEA-PDX flight is scheduled to depart at 2:00 PM and arrive at 2:54 PM. I can book a separate AS ticket PDX-SEA-YVR on 1/1, departing 4:45 PM, arriving at YVR at 10:17 PM. But preferably, we want to drive to Whistler that night. Obviously, it would be a lot more convenient to simply drop the last SEA-PDX leg, and instead fly SEA-YVR directly. There is a 3:40 PM flight SEA-YVR, arriving at 4:48 PM. There is a ticket cost savings of about $200 per ticket versus booking the PDX-SEA-YVR flight. But the convenience is more important than the cost. There is also a direct PDX-YVR flight on Air Canada, with a 6 PM departure and 7:19 PM arrival. Although we generally prefer to fly Alaska, in this case, the much earlier arrival and cheaper flight would make this our likely choice. But it would still be way better to get into YVR at 4:48 PM than 7:19 PM, as we could be in Whistler in time for a late dinner at our friends' house.
We won't have checked bags, and if we did presumably we would need to pick them up in SEA to go through customs and immigration.
I'm generally aware of hidden city ticketing rules by airlines, and that QR and AS would frown on us dropping the last SEA-PDX leg. But when I go to Qatar Airways' website, there isn't even an option for me to change our flight to see what the fare difference would be to fly to YVR instead of PDX. While I'm a seasoned traveler domestically, I have less international travel experience, and I've never dealt with a situation even remotely like this one. Here are my questions:
I found a decent deal on Qatar Airways in business class PDX-SEA-DOH-JNB-DOH-SEA-PDX, departing 12/19 and arriving back in Portland on 1/1. (It was only about twice the cost my brother is paying for similar flights in coach, but transiting through Europe instead of DOH.) The PDX-SEA and SEA-PDX legs are of course on AS metal. I'm MVP Gold 75K and my wife and son are both MVP Gold. This part of the trip is set, but we are trying to plan the rest of our son's holiday break from college.
Right now our plan after arrival back in the United States is to immediately travel to Whistler to do some skiing with Canadian friends for most of a week. Our DOH-SEA flight is scheduled to arrive at 11:50 AM, and the SEA-PDX flight is scheduled to depart at 2:00 PM and arrive at 2:54 PM. I can book a separate AS ticket PDX-SEA-YVR on 1/1, departing 4:45 PM, arriving at YVR at 10:17 PM. But preferably, we want to drive to Whistler that night. Obviously, it would be a lot more convenient to simply drop the last SEA-PDX leg, and instead fly SEA-YVR directly. There is a 3:40 PM flight SEA-YVR, arriving at 4:48 PM. There is a ticket cost savings of about $200 per ticket versus booking the PDX-SEA-YVR flight. But the convenience is more important than the cost. There is also a direct PDX-YVR flight on Air Canada, with a 6 PM departure and 7:19 PM arrival. Although we generally prefer to fly Alaska, in this case, the much earlier arrival and cheaper flight would make this our likely choice. But it would still be way better to get into YVR at 4:48 PM than 7:19 PM, as we could be in Whistler in time for a late dinner at our friends' house.
We won't have checked bags, and if we did presumably we would need to pick them up in SEA to go through customs and immigration.
I'm generally aware of hidden city ticketing rules by airlines, and that QR and AS would frown on us dropping the last SEA-PDX leg. But when I go to Qatar Airways' website, there isn't even an option for me to change our flight to see what the fare difference would be to fly to YVR instead of PDX. While I'm a seasoned traveler domestically, I have less international travel experience, and I've never dealt with a situation even remotely like this one. Here are my questions:
- In this situation, how likely is Alaska Airlines to "punish" us for dropping the final leg? My general understanding is that an occasional dropped leg isn't a bid deal, but airlines can ban passengers or remove mileage earnings for repeated offenses.
- Would booking a separate ticket SEA-YVR that overlaps our SEA-PDX flight make it more likely that Alaska would find out and take action? I could book SEA-YVR on AC instead of AS to avoid this.
- Is there any possibility to go to the Alaska counter at SEA or to call Alaska after arrival in SEA to change the final leg from SEA-PDX to SEA-YVR? Obviously there would be a risk of the flight being booked.
- Are there other possibilities that I haven't thought of, or do you have any other suggestions?
- This last question is unrelated to my hidden city ticketing dilemma, but I thought I would ask for clarification. When I first booked the Qatar Airways flights, I thought that we would be able to earn Alaska miles for the flights, which would help tremendously with status qualification. But after checking Alaska's website, it looks like we only earn AS miles on QR flights booked via Alaska as codeshare flights. Has anyone ever been able to earn AS miles on QR flights booked at qatarairways.com? (I looked at booking the flights at alaskaair.com, but Alaska doesn't offer the flights as codeshare flights.)
I found a much better option for you. Harbour Air Seaplane from Seattle Lake Union to Downtown Toronto Waterfront. $199 one-way, perfect timing too, and you will reach Vancouver even faster because you won't have to deal with the immigration at YVR.
In my opinion it's better to pay $199 on harbour seaplane than $154 on AC. But of course you would have to get a Uber from SeaTac to Lake Union.
#14
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#15
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,125
For what it's worth, Qatar's Conditions of Carriage says they care about whether you actually fly each leg, not intent when booking:
I was also curious about Alaska's rule (I know that doesn't apply to you but I fly them a lot). They have different language but again, the rule involves where you fly rather than intent:
3.4 Should you change your transportation without our agreement or fail to fly the complete itinerary booked, we will assess the correct price for your actual travel. You will have to pay any difference between the price paid and the total price applicable, together with any applicable administration charge, for your revised transportation.
I am not saying this would dissuade me from skipping the last leg. I was just curious about the rule.I was also curious about Alaska's rule (I know that doesn't apply to you but I fly them a lot). They have different language but again, the rule involves where you fly rather than intent:
7.E.3. ...Tickets may not be purchased and used at fare(s) from an initial departure point on the Ticket which is before the Passenger's actual point of origin of travel or to a more distant point(s) than the Passenger's actual destination being traveled, even when the purchase and use of such Tickets would produce a lower fare....
A later clause says that, in such a case, they can "assess the Passenger for the actual remaining value of the Ticket, which shall be no less than the difference between the fare actually paid and the lowest fare applicable to the Passenger's actual itinerary". It's not clear if this means they can charge you more than you already paid. It also, of course, says they can close your Mileage Plan account and impose other horrific punishments.Last edited by Aliquot; Oct 21, 2023 at 1:26 pm