JacksonFlyer

I am wondering if anyone else encountered this with this flight from PDX to SEA daily. For the past six weeks I have flown this flight sometime during the week; Mon-Sat. For every one of those six flights, we have boarded right on time (40 minutes prior to departure) be ready to go 10 minutes prior to scheduled departure and then hear the Captain say "Folks, Seattle is a little busy today, we have a 15-20 minute ATC hold, sorry about that but we will try to make up time." I know this happens, but every time on the same flight? Has anyone else taken this flight in the last two months and had the same thing happen? I have joked with the forward cabin FA when I board by saying "want to bet there will be a hold?" only to have that FA stare at me when it is announced.

It has not been much of a problem for me as I get where I am going always in time but it has been an interesting observation. If this is happening "all" the time, why wouldn't Alaska just move the departure back 15 minutes and adjust their boarding time? As it stands, we are on the ground far longer than the actual flight, and of course no PDB in first, nor in the air as there is always turbulence and a quick flight (though we did get service on one flight). Maybe this is only happening for a period of time and not worth changing schedules or maybe I have just been unlucky. Either way, still would take this flight over driving PDX to SEA or taking another flight earlier.

kevincrumbs

I can't remember my last PDX-SEA flight which didn't involve an ATC hold in SEA leading to a ground hold in PDX. My theory is that AS/QX needs the gates in PDX, so they act as if everything is going to be on schedule but once everyone's boarded, they taxi the plane over to an area where we can wait out the delay on the ground.

FWIW, my PDX-SEA flights tend to be in the evening. Not sure it's any different during the day.

Often1

These micro-hops are blocked by AS for somewhat more time during peak times, although that does not deal with a lengthy hold.

There are two practices at play here:

First, when traffic flow needs to be curtailed, ATC will have the carriers designate the inbound flights which are to be delayed. In the case of AS, that will be a PDX-SEA or other microhaul, rather than a TCON or HI flight, where a lengthy hold means a likely diversion.

Second, better ATC and AS software hold aircraft on the ground at the departure station rather than having them depart and then hold over the arrival station. The latter burns a lot of fuel (costs $, bad for environment). But, minor changes can open a landing slot quickly. The alternative here is to not board the flight based on a 40-minute hold and then have to pass should the release time be moved up (ATC won't really do that because the aircraft must have pushed to get a slot) but you get the picture.

JacksonFlyer

This makes sense, particularly if AS is designating this flight and perhaps are doing it routinely; I wonder if it is the fact that it is a 737 as opposed to a Q400. I have taken the shuttle from PDX to SEA in the morning at other times during these particular past weeks and never had a hold on them. I agree that on these short hops it makes more sense to hold on the ground than circling the airport.

sltlyamusd

The reason there is a hold is because of flow control. SEA has too many flights arriving at certain key times, particularly if weather is suboptimal. To the OP, pushing back the scheduled departure time won't do any good under the circumstances. All that would do is cause a delay to be added on to the now later departure time.

beckoa

I flew AS423 last month and it was a decent experience, despite a brief ATC hold in PDX. (Think I fell asleep as I flew AS134 down from ANC and didn't sleep enough).

We even got two rounds of beverages in the air ^.

73H helps on this route with only 12 in F. Juxtapose this to PSG-JNU where there wasn't even enough for the FA to serve all 12 in F

jackal

I've always wondered why they don't just take off and fly slower. Instead of cruising at 400mph, drop it down to 200mph and there's your extra 15 minutes. It'll save on fuel (less air resistance=greater fuel efficiency, since drag increases with the square of velocity) and allow for quicker changes if a landing slot opens up, since all they need to do is shove the throttle levels forward and go faster.

Isn't that what they spent $1.1 billion to put the third runway in for?

jsguyrus

I doubt very much they want you flying at 200mph when everyone else is going 400mph, probably a sure way to create additional back ups. I don't think runway capacity is the problem, more like the taxiways and gates.

jackal

With as consistent as the delays on this route are, maybe everyone else will also be flying at 200mph.

I wonder how it would work to segregate the airspace a bit and have slower-flying craft fly at a lower altitude to stay out of the way of the faster, higher planes. Since they're not flying as fast, they can afford to cruise in the denser, lower air without as much of a fuel efficiency hit.

With as many ATC holds as there are around the country each day, I've wondered whether it makes sense to do something like this on a systemwide basis--rather than giving a specific wheels-up time, give them a specific wheels-down time and leave the airline responsible for planning their route, speed, and departure time to hit that specific wheels-down window. If they want to take off earlier and fly lower and slower and save gas, they can; if they need to prioritize aircraft utilization, crew duty times, or swap planes/crews/whatever, and leave later and fly faster, they can, all while still accommodating the original need for the departure slot: preventing congestion upon arrival at the destination.

Sitting in a penalty box somewhere burning Jet-A (even at idle thrust) seems like the worst of the possible options.

formeraa

Well, consistent ATC holds are just a sign that SEA has graduated into the big leagues. If you have lived or had to connect through the large Midwest or East Coast airports, ATC holds are a regular fact of life. They have to board the plane and assume that the flight is leaving on-time; otherwise, they may lose their ATC slot and the delay will be even longer.

Let's face it: this is a result of the large DL buildup and AS response at SEA. There are simply more flights at SEA than can be handled at one time. FAA modernization will help. Infrastructure improvement at SEA will help somewhat. But, right now, there are too many flights cramming into the SEA airspace at the same time as the AS PDX-SEA flight.

SOCguy

Here's the scoop: on the ground there are two different types of ATC delays. First, a ground delay program (GDP). This is what you experience constantly in SFO and frequently these days in SEA. These programs are published, often hours in advance, and the times are visible to the airlines (and anyone else - they're free to see online).

The second type of delay is a "call for release" or "metering" delay. These delays are not visible to the airline, or passengers, and are assigned by SEA Center for flights originating within SEA Center (PDX is in SEA Center). Flight crews will be notified of their wheels up time to SEA when they're calling for their clearance - this happens after boarding begins. On the QX side, our flights will often be alerted to the possibility of a wheels up time by ATC on their inbound (to places like PSC, ALW, GEG where our ground time is short) but won't find out the actual time until they're on the ground. There's not much the airline can do to plan for these. Trust me, it isn't any shenanigans on the airline's part.

There are definitely times of the day where the likelihood of this occurring are higher due to the volume of traffic in SEA. On my shift, flights arriving between 1000-1100 frequently get stuck with a delay.

JacksonFlyer

Ah, an insider view. This part seems to be what I have encountered. We board on time, the Captain has mentioned "...will get the doors closed and have an early departure" then followed by the "...aaaaahhhh, folks, we have a delay..." So we sit at the gate, the front door remains open for about 15-20 minutes then the door closes and off we go. Interesting to note that the equipment is just about every type of 737 in the inventory; 400, 700, 800, 900 and when I get off in SEA I see the next departure for that equipment is different every time...again, just an observation. Perhaps the 12-1400 period is that "busy" period. I am flying again this week so we will see if the streak continues.

PDXPremier

Very helpful and interesting info...thanks. ^

SpicyMorale

The end of the C concourse is a nightmare, whenever I'm there, there always come a point where at least two if not three gate agents are speaking at the same time.