toomanybooks

With WN, there is no "money's worth." Points are worth a flat 1/60 of a dollar, soon to be 1/70. So if you see a $59 fare, redeem a few points, unless you need status points. For an expensive long trip, look to legacy redemptions. It gives you more flexibility when you can choose the program to redeem in.

Under the current scheme, if you buy WGA (cheap) fares and redeem for same, it's 10% back. If A+, 20%, If A-, 12.5%. Watch for bonuses.

There are ways to generate large amounts of points in CC/hotel programs and transfer in. This is in fact probably the best deal.

Justin026

Echoing Legal Tender, how is this absorption going to work with 30+ 717s still around at the end of 2014 ? At merger time, the 717 was a welcome addition to the fleet, a press release showed it painted in SWA livery. Then it was a pariah.

I really don't care about the plane itself, but I definitely get the feeling a big cut back is coming in ATL. There is no real attempt underway to introduce Southwest to the core routes that AirTran flies, even when the destinations are big points in the Southwest network. Business Class seems wide open to buy tickets, usually at full fares 20% below rival Delta fares, and often leaves with empty seats. Neither DL or SWA seem to care about a pricing situation that would not have existed two years ago. An ominous sign.

Every day at the connecting times, you see 6-8+ 717s scattered around the gate areas. How can this be absorbed in twelve months? The 737 conversions can't do that -- they are absorbing their own capacity!

saneman

I should have made it clearer. I meant in the AirTran system, I would saved my one way redemptions for the $200 tickets and pay out of my pocket when the fare was cheap. Hell, the best deals were when I would save my 4 point upgrades for west coast flights. Also, I got spoiled by AirTran's frequent use of double bonus points. I too read that flat formula redemption in WN. It looks better than Delta's and worse than AirTran's.

Considering my domestic flights are so low mileage (most of my trips are from ATL to BOS, HOU, PBI, PHL type flights), and I make about 30-40 domestic one ways a year, and 1 or 2 international RTs a year, if I want to go with Delta for international , I might have a shot at GOLD if I get their platinum credit card. Silver aint worth much in ATL. But I like trying different airlines internationally, so I gotta just forget the whole loyalty thing and just go with whatever I want domestically. I got no shot at A List preferred(50 one ways), so I don't know if A List is enough to get me an exit row seat most of the time.

BillyBaloney

Booked MKE-DEN just last night. I will never fly WN, only when no other choice. It's sort of like O%%%-care. Your forced to pay for something you don't really want.

Other than that, I would like to say
Helloooooooooooo Delta. They have a good product and what seems to be a good upgrade policy (which even earns skypesos, no less). That has pretty much been my routine with FL all these years.

Surprised - only 1 WN marketing dep. rep so far in this thread.

grahampros

Nope. End of 2015 for deliveries to DL. But WN has said they will take them all out the fleet by 2014 so they will just sit on them and maintain the original delivery schedule to DL. This has been well reported in recent days. Both DL and WN have made public announcements on this.

grahampros

Southwest is taking delivery of a lot frames in 2014 with larger size so absolute capacity will remain about the same. WN is dehubbing Atlanta so will not worry about connecting times.

Justin026

I guess the strategy is to lean down while these are still AirTran routes and then Southwest can "take it over." Currently, there are five AirTran nonstops still left each way between Orlando and Atlanta. Also, two listed Southwest connections, via Raleigh-Durham and New Orleans, at higher fares. This is where we are in a transition plan that is a few years old, for a route that actually goes to a strong SW city.

The last return flight to Atlanta is at 4:30 PM. Delta flies this route nonstop 15 times a day each way, with hourly service back to ATL every hour from 4:30 to 8:30 in the evening. It is fare matching every coach fare 3 weeks out and is selling first class for $75 each way cheaper than AirTran.

Southwest's strategy is to walk away from Atlanta, having purchased 70-odd planes they wanted and selling off 70-odd planes they didn't want. Knocked off some of their most annoying LCC competition in the bargain.

saneman

My feeling from reading articles over the years and postings on this forum combined with a gut feeling I had all along is that WN actually does value Atlanta as city to be added to their network, just nowhere what AirTran valued it as. WN is not interested in competing with Delta on hub terms in Atlanta anymore than they would compete with any other airline at any airport where WN is only a secondary presence.

But WN knew that there would be no place for it in Atlanta as long as AirTran is holding on to the second place. Plus those gates are valuable. So destroying Airtran is their only option for them to get access to ATL and in the process cut down LCC competition in other airports where both airlines serve. If WN reduces their flights from ATL, do they just give up the extra gates or they can leverage those gate with other airlines and get reciprocal exchanges at other airports using the ATL gates as leverage?

MrMan

You forgot to mention it was AirTran major shareholder that sold to get the ROI out. This was not a hostile takeover, it was for sale.

hazelrah

"Upon his capture in 1934, the legendary bank robber Willie Sutton was asked by FBI agents, Why do you rob banks, Willie? Sutton, who believed the question to be rhetorical, replied, dryly, Because that's where the money is".

Of course WN values ATL. According to WIKI it's the 8th most wealthy metropolitan area in the U.S.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highest..._United_States

It's just not going to be a WN hub. It's typical WN, it will be selective on its routes. 1) WN doesn't per se do hubs, and 2) market conditions don't warrant a "hub".


I wouldn't put it this way. Capitalism can be destructive, some would say essentially and creatively so. Growing organically clearly wasn't in WN's strategic interests, and there were considerable market risks and barriers to entry in ATL. The Air Tran purchase just made a lot of sense from a business perspective, given that WN wanted access to the ATL market.

rsteinmetz70112

Airtran and Southwest served few of the same cities and even where they were both in the same city seldom were directly competitive on routes.

It was clear that Airtran was growing and would eventually come into conflict with Southwest somewhere.

hazelrah

Not entirely true, for many years at BWI (number 2 city I believe for both Air Tran and Southwest) they've competed on several routes for many years. From a consumer's standpoint it was magnificent.

It's been true at BWI for many years, and was happening at MKE. Air Tran, while profitable (barely), had the thinnest of thin margins.

I would have like to have seen the competition go on for ever, but two LCCs bloodying each other doesn't seem to benefit anyone, certainly not in the long-term.

rsteinmetz70112

When the deal was announced I went through the route maps and of the cities each served fewer than a dozen were served by both. In the cities that they both served they generally served different routes. What routes were the competitive on at BWI? I know Airtran went to ATL and to Florida, I'm not sure where Southwest went. But even that was a very small number of the total routes either company flew.

Airtran was also investing in new planes and expansion of it's route structure, something Southwest was not doing. Their fleet and route structure was flat for 2-3 years before the purchase with new planes being used to replace older less economical planes.

hazelrah

[QUOTE=rsteinmetz70112;22173198]When the deal was announced I went through the route maps and of the cities each served fewer than a dozen were served by both. In the cities that they both served they generally served different routes. What routes were the competitive on at BWI? I know Airtran went to ATL and to Florida, I'm not sure where Southwest went. But even that was a very small number of the total routes either company flew.

They've competed many years at BWI directly on all the Florida non-stop routes, (which is the bread and butter) and to BOS/PVD and on many other routes via one stops.

What better way to grow than to buy a competitor? All those new planes and orders became WN's- seems like a lot of synergy.

rsteinmetz70112

That is one way to grow. My original comment was on Airtran's lower profits. Instead of taking profit from existing operations as Southwest was Airtran was investing in expansion, creating greater future profits.