Is Airpoints the most "hostile" airlines loyalty program?
Apr 6, 2009, 8:22 am
#16
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: London
Programs: AA, BA, UAL, NZ, QF, LH, SPG, IHG, HH, Marriott etc etc
Posts: 152
$30/$20 fee can be paid in airdollars
so you don't even have to stump up cash....and can use to book any NZ flights you like. think it's a great scheme but you are paying up for the flexibility - I keep my BMI DC for the value (and credit card earnings) and the wife/kids on NZ for the flexibility (and fly SQ long haul, NZ short haul)... it works! If NZ showed more long haul availability on 12 month notice then would love to fly more NZ , but for now SQ will do, even if have to now go via Europe when flying UK-NZ (whole family in J class annually)
Apr 11, 2009, 9:28 pm
#17
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: C6 - AKL
Programs: AA-1MM
Posts: 336
Airpoints sucks....haven't bothered with it for a while now, as my UA is much better on earn/burn....
As for the awards that the program gets, I worked in the past for a large business magazine in Europe....throw enough advertising money around them, and you get an award....funny that....
The result is that I actively avoid AirNZ and sometimes go to great lengths to do so because their loyalty program sucks and I get far better bonuses, etc...on OW carriers through AA...
All we can do is spread the word to everyone who is not on the boards in the hope that enough people defect to other *A programs or drop their business from AirNZ entirely...it is the only way that AirNZ will get the message.
While the debate is good, I think that it is rather pointless....AirNZ is not going to change the program, as it works in their favour and they almost have a monopoly on many routes...further, if they were inclined to improve the program, there have been many threads complaining about it here and on other sites for the past couple of years....
(in the interests of full disclosure, I have a couple of friends who work for AirNZ in the customer services and loyalty area....and they simply don't get it and never will...)
As for the awards that the program gets, I worked in the past for a large business magazine in Europe....throw enough advertising money around them, and you get an award....funny that....
The result is that I actively avoid AirNZ and sometimes go to great lengths to do so because their loyalty program sucks and I get far better bonuses, etc...on OW carriers through AA...
All we can do is spread the word to everyone who is not on the boards in the hope that enough people defect to other *A programs or drop their business from AirNZ entirely...it is the only way that AirNZ will get the message.
While the debate is good, I think that it is rather pointless....AirNZ is not going to change the program, as it works in their favour and they almost have a monopoly on many routes...further, if they were inclined to improve the program, there have been many threads complaining about it here and on other sites for the past couple of years....
(in the interests of full disclosure, I have a couple of friends who work for AirNZ in the customer services and loyalty area....and they simply don't get it and never will...)
Apr 12, 2009, 6:06 am
#18
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: AKL
Programs: A3, AA, AF, AS, BA, SQ, UA, US, IHG, SPG
Posts: 352
Airpoints sucks....haven't bothered with it for a while now, as my UA is much better on earn/burn....
As for the awards that the program gets, I worked in the past for a large business magazine in Europe....throw enough advertising money around them, and you get an award....funny that....
The result is that I actively avoid AirNZ and sometimes go to great lengths to do so because their loyalty program sucks and I get far better bonuses, etc...on OW carriers through AA...
All we can do is spread the word to everyone who is not on the boards in the hope that enough people defect to other *A programs or drop their business from AirNZ entirely...it is the only way that AirNZ will get the message.
While the debate is good, I think that it is rather pointless....AirNZ is not going to change the program, as it works in their favour and they almost have a monopoly on many routes...further, if they were inclined to improve the program, there have been many threads complaining about it here and on other sites for the past couple of years....
(in the interests of full disclosure, I have a couple of friends who work for AirNZ in the customer services and loyalty area....and they simply don't get it and never will...)
As for the awards that the program gets, I worked in the past for a large business magazine in Europe....throw enough advertising money around them, and you get an award....funny that....
The result is that I actively avoid AirNZ and sometimes go to great lengths to do so because their loyalty program sucks and I get far better bonuses, etc...on OW carriers through AA...
All we can do is spread the word to everyone who is not on the boards in the hope that enough people defect to other *A programs or drop their business from AirNZ entirely...it is the only way that AirNZ will get the message.
While the debate is good, I think that it is rather pointless....AirNZ is not going to change the program, as it works in their favour and they almost have a monopoly on many routes...further, if they were inclined to improve the program, there have been many threads complaining about it here and on other sites for the past couple of years....
(in the interests of full disclosure, I have a couple of friends who work for AirNZ in the customer services and loyalty area....and they simply don't get it and never will...)
Defecting to other carriers or Star programs won't make Airpoints better - I say people who are educated enough already in other programs like UA, BD, OZ, etc. Air NZ is missing a lot of potentially easy and sustainable revenue such as retail, credit cards, dining, etc. It's kind of a vicious cycle - because the program is bad, so there aren't many partners and members joining, and there aren't more opportunities for redemption.
Stuff like magazine subscription, restaurant vouchers will entice companies to become Airpoint partners and consumers more inclined to use Airpoints/fly Air NZ. It's a win-win. Unfortunately people at Air NZ, well at Airpoints at least, have no incentives to expand the program because they aren't getting , er, rewarded properly I suspect.
It will take people at the Board level to understand how valuable a good loyalty program can be, not just a "frequent flyer" program but a revenue-generating department.
Apr 12, 2009, 6:34 am
#19
Join Date: May 2005
Location: SJC
Programs: NZ*G, QF NB, UA 1K, AA ExecPlat, IHG PlatAmb, HHonors Gold, SPG Gold, Marriott Gold, ZE1 PC
Posts: 2,636
I find most, erm, cost-conscious NZ people, either aren't interested in FFPs or they use QF. If they do use NZ, it's because they're likely to redeem for grabaseat or discount Y domestic or Tasman awards.
Apr 12, 2009, 9:55 am
#20
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: LCY
Posts: 1,222
Seats on any Air NZ flights for the member or family, upgrades on Air NZ flights, seats on 21 other good airlines via Star Alliance, Koru membership, car rentals: I'm not sure where your stated lack of redemption opportunities is.
Stuff like magazine subscription, restaurant vouchers will entice companies to become Airpoint partners and consumers more inclined to use Airpoints/fly Air NZ. It's a win-win.
It will take people at the Board level to understand how valuable a good loyalty program can be, not just a "frequent flyer" program but a revenue-generating department.
It will take people at the Board level to understand how valuable a good loyalty program can be, not just a "frequent flyer" program but a revenue-generating department.
I'll repeat my point from a few posts back - Air NZ Airpoints is a travel loyalty programme: they should and do focus on their core business of earning and burning on travel related spend. Leave the large, costly, messy end of the market to Nectar, Fly Buys, Tesco, and the like. What benefit would the airline gain from knowing which brand of rice we buy at the supermarket, or whether we renew household insurance in March or September?
I expect Airpoints is already a good revenue generator for the airline -- primarily because a far greater number of *A members from other airlines redeem on NZ flights than NZ members on *A flights (partly as a result of the uncompetitive burning levels of course) thus they will receive a cash payout from the other airlines for the value of those seats.
Last edited by stewardo; Apr 12, 2009 at 10:01 am
Apr 12, 2009, 2:07 pm
#21
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,315
Bollocks, basically.
Most people don't know a FFP from pi. And many who do know FFPs still fly Air NZ precisely because they appreciate the service level, or schedule, or price - a point you noted about yourself.
So, yes - of course AirPoints is far from the best FFP out there, but it's not the AirPoints programme that drives most NZ customers' flying behaviour.
Still a good thread though. Is "Devil's Advocacy" one of the magazines you subscribe to with the partner miles you earn elsewhere?
Apr 12, 2009, 8:03 pm
#22
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: C6 - AKL
Programs: AA-1MM
Posts: 336
I quit Airpoints about 3 years ago and had very little in it....it is not worth bothering with when there are better *A FFP opportunities out there and SQ to fly when I need to take a *A carrier....their FFP lost them 99.9% of my business...even for redemption...
Apr 12, 2009, 8:21 pm
#23
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Programs: NZ*G ELT, VA-G
Posts: 3,598
Anyway, the following 2 links have expanded the earning opportunities a little bit. Once again, Airpoints has done a terrible job in letting people know where to collect points from and the correct earning rate. No mention on their website.
Stays at Choice Hotels worldwide now accrue Airpoints.
http://www.choicehotels.com/ires/en-...n.O0nhSg05M.11
Snap Printing has joined Airpoints and become the 2nd retail partner.
http://www.snapprinting.co.nz/NR/exe...A54B8EB7BD.htm
Apr 13, 2009, 1:34 am
#25
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: LCY
Posts: 1,222
The brilliant thing about Star Alliance is that we can chooses from many FFP to join based on our preferences. I use the NZ one for the comp and other upgrades, for taking a guest into regional koru lounges and sometimes for grabaseat domestic flights. I know airpoints provides poor value though so put the bulk of my *A flying to a programme that provides better value for redemptions. (and also has very few retail partners..)
Apr 13, 2009, 1:40 am
#26
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,315
In the meantime you've alluded to the benefits to you of programmes offered by UA, OW/AA, and SQ, which just makes me think about exceptions to every rule. i.e. If you're a regular premium cabin passenger between NZ and Europe, with a high degreee of discretion about who you fly with and on what routes, then AirPoints may well be missing the mark with you.
So be it I guess.
Apr 13, 2009, 4:16 am
#27
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: AKL
Programs: A3, AA, AF, AS, BA, SQ, UA, US, IHG, SPG
Posts: 352
1. Currently there's no joining fee, but historically there has been a $50 fee - QF and NZ were the only FFPs in the world that CHARGE local (AU/NZ) customers to be loyal to them, as far as I know.
2. An inactive fee won't get Air NZ more business - one could simply ignore it, cancel the membership and use another FFP with Star partners, or quit flying Air NZ. It's not like accounts payable where companies lose money on unpaid debt; any business is good business in this economy.
Many other airlines in the world require just ANY activity to keep the account and/or credit. Air NZ makes money by selling Airpoints (and people redeeming it) to retail and other partners, it's not like people get their points for doing nothing.
3. My observation of "lack" of redemption opportunities is in relative, eg compared to other FFPs. Even Virgin Blue and Qantas have more opportunities.
stewardo, you miss the points of loyalty programs - it's about customer retention and revenue generation. The loyalty programs are extremely valuable if it's well run - in the US these programs are worth more than the airlines themselves! Aeroplan of Air Canada is a publicly listed company, separate from Air Canada and I believe Qantas is doing the same with its FFP.
Revenue generation is more important than ever in this economy we are in. Focusing on your core products is great, but when no one is buying even though your product and your price are good, you've got to find other sources of revenue.
Airlines don't and shouldn't know what you mentioned - what products consumers buy or what insurance you choose - airlines make money of FFPs by printing currency (miles/points) and selling them to partners and ultimately consumers, and as a marketing portal (especially so in large markets like the US) to recruit and retain buyers. Airline's record of your frequency, spend, destination of flying, among other information, are very valuable for companies and marketing agencies. Airlines themselves don't do the market search work - they just supply the data to anyone who's interested to pay for it.
There's no "large, costly and messy" end of the market - it either works or it doesn't. FFPs are a proven revenue generators, and in some markets, a necessary competitive tool, eg Southwest's Rapid Returns.
Airpoints may already be working well for Air NZ, but I say it can work much better - your example of other FFPs give Air NZ money for the award tickets is exactly that. If Airpoints's earn/burn rate and the overall program are on par with say AC or UA, NZ/AU-based flyers will be using Airpoints and flying NZ instead of other partner programs.
NZ makes better margin on award travel if it internalizes the costs and customer base - I say NZ is potentially underselling their award seats to their partners vs potential revenue absorption from the would be AP members.
For example UA charges 100K miles for an Asia-Aus/NZ C ticket. The norm of the value is US$0.01/mile, so I essentially "pay" US$1000 to UA, and I say UA probably gets the ticket from NZ for less than 1c/mile. In competing routes such as LAX-LHR, UA doesn't even allow redemptions on NZ C because it can absorb the revenue/liability itself.
I understand you want to keep things simple and so on. My point is that Airpoints can be a even bigger revenue generator for NZ, nothing against NZ or AP supporters who are enjoying the benefits.
kiwibigdave, oops how did you find out I subscribed to Devil's Advocacy with my CO miles? Not a bad mag at all, bi-monthly issues tell you all the devilish stuff you need to know
I disagree with you:
1. Loyalty program does alter purchase behaviours - not so in NZ-monopoly domestic routes, but for international ex-AKL and domestic trunk routes, I say FFP does impact on purchase decisions, along with price, service and schedule.
2. Lack of retail partners has nothing to do with NZ society. QF and DJ have more partners than NZ (heck anyone can have more than NZ when NZ's got 1!), in New Zealand. Also NZ shouldn't think itself just a NZ company - its flights may be NZ-focused but its marketing and revenue activities don't have to be all-NZ centric. NZ can sign up heaps of Aussie partners and to enlarge its revenue and flyer base in Australia. I guess NZ is being very cautious after Ansett...
3. I think you are one of the FTers who would like to see Airpoints to be "exclusive" and "Us vs Them". Airpoints isn't a high-end nightclub one wants to splash the cash and hang out with only the beautiful people and thinks all the rest can bugger off to other places.
Air NZ doesn't belong to a private entity, is owned by NZ Govt/public, and should be increasing overall revenue, not only revenue from "premium" passengers. Revenue from prem passengers is piece, not the whole of a pie.
There's no conflict of interests by making the program more inclusive. QF does it, DJ does it, most decent and profitable FFP do.
If you are really "premium", you will be flying your own jet, have partial ownership of a jet, or buy hours to fly on a private jet. In those cases they won't care FFPs, airlines, recession or a lot else in the world.
On a purely financial basis, you and other premium/regular NZ-Europe Business Premier passengers are much better off if you put miles in other Star programs. Why bother with upgrades when you can get a whole J ticket a lot faster/cheaper with AC/BD/UA and alike. With Star Gold you can take a guest in most lounges anyway.
You still pay to NZ, have your bum on NZ, the only difference is where the miles go to, and NZ can make even more $$ if Airpoints lift their game so flyers switch back from Star partners to AP, and you won't suffer loss in benefits because ones like me who grab NZ J seats from AC/BD/UA miles are already doing it anyway - doesn't make redemption/upgrade any harder.
if I am correct, I say most of the CURRENT NZ Airpoints "supporters" are from regional NZ, where competition is less if not non existent, or extremely patriotic. Is it a fair comment?
I hope nothing but the best for Air NZ and every FTer here, whether you agree/disagree with me. I just think that Airpoints can do much better, both Air NZ and flyers, premium or not, can benefit from an enlarged/more inclusive program.
Cheers to all
2. An inactive fee won't get Air NZ more business - one could simply ignore it, cancel the membership and use another FFP with Star partners, or quit flying Air NZ. It's not like accounts payable where companies lose money on unpaid debt; any business is good business in this economy.
Many other airlines in the world require just ANY activity to keep the account and/or credit. Air NZ makes money by selling Airpoints (and people redeeming it) to retail and other partners, it's not like people get their points for doing nothing.
3. My observation of "lack" of redemption opportunities is in relative, eg compared to other FFPs. Even Virgin Blue and Qantas have more opportunities.
stewardo, you miss the points of loyalty programs - it's about customer retention and revenue generation. The loyalty programs are extremely valuable if it's well run - in the US these programs are worth more than the airlines themselves! Aeroplan of Air Canada is a publicly listed company, separate from Air Canada and I believe Qantas is doing the same with its FFP.
Revenue generation is more important than ever in this economy we are in. Focusing on your core products is great, but when no one is buying even though your product and your price are good, you've got to find other sources of revenue.
Airlines don't and shouldn't know what you mentioned - what products consumers buy or what insurance you choose - airlines make money of FFPs by printing currency (miles/points) and selling them to partners and ultimately consumers, and as a marketing portal (especially so in large markets like the US) to recruit and retain buyers. Airline's record of your frequency, spend, destination of flying, among other information, are very valuable for companies and marketing agencies. Airlines themselves don't do the market search work - they just supply the data to anyone who's interested to pay for it.
There's no "large, costly and messy" end of the market - it either works or it doesn't. FFPs are a proven revenue generators, and in some markets, a necessary competitive tool, eg Southwest's Rapid Returns.
Airpoints may already be working well for Air NZ, but I say it can work much better - your example of other FFPs give Air NZ money for the award tickets is exactly that. If Airpoints's earn/burn rate and the overall program are on par with say AC or UA, NZ/AU-based flyers will be using Airpoints and flying NZ instead of other partner programs.
NZ makes better margin on award travel if it internalizes the costs and customer base - I say NZ is potentially underselling their award seats to their partners vs potential revenue absorption from the would be AP members.
For example UA charges 100K miles for an Asia-Aus/NZ C ticket. The norm of the value is US$0.01/mile, so I essentially "pay" US$1000 to UA, and I say UA probably gets the ticket from NZ for less than 1c/mile. In competing routes such as LAX-LHR, UA doesn't even allow redemptions on NZ C because it can absorb the revenue/liability itself.
I understand you want to keep things simple and so on. My point is that Airpoints can be a even bigger revenue generator for NZ, nothing against NZ or AP supporters who are enjoying the benefits.
kiwibigdave, oops how did you find out I subscribed to Devil's Advocacy with my CO miles? Not a bad mag at all, bi-monthly issues tell you all the devilish stuff you need to know
I disagree with you:
1. Loyalty program does alter purchase behaviours - not so in NZ-monopoly domestic routes, but for international ex-AKL and domestic trunk routes, I say FFP does impact on purchase decisions, along with price, service and schedule.
2. Lack of retail partners has nothing to do with NZ society. QF and DJ have more partners than NZ (heck anyone can have more than NZ when NZ's got 1!), in New Zealand. Also NZ shouldn't think itself just a NZ company - its flights may be NZ-focused but its marketing and revenue activities don't have to be all-NZ centric. NZ can sign up heaps of Aussie partners and to enlarge its revenue and flyer base in Australia. I guess NZ is being very cautious after Ansett...
Air NZ doesn't belong to a private entity, is owned by NZ Govt/public, and should be increasing overall revenue, not only revenue from "premium" passengers. Revenue from prem passengers is piece, not the whole of a pie.
There's no conflict of interests by making the program more inclusive. QF does it, DJ does it, most decent and profitable FFP do.
If you are really "premium", you will be flying your own jet, have partial ownership of a jet, or buy hours to fly on a private jet. In those cases they won't care FFPs, airlines, recession or a lot else in the world.
On a purely financial basis, you and other premium/regular NZ-Europe Business Premier passengers are much better off if you put miles in other Star programs. Why bother with upgrades when you can get a whole J ticket a lot faster/cheaper with AC/BD/UA and alike. With Star Gold you can take a guest in most lounges anyway.
You still pay to NZ, have your bum on NZ, the only difference is where the miles go to, and NZ can make even more $$ if Airpoints lift their game so flyers switch back from Star partners to AP, and you won't suffer loss in benefits because ones like me who grab NZ J seats from AC/BD/UA miles are already doing it anyway - doesn't make redemption/upgrade any harder.
if I am correct, I say most of the CURRENT NZ Airpoints "supporters" are from regional NZ, where competition is less if not non existent, or extremely patriotic. Is it a fair comment?
I hope nothing but the best for Air NZ and every FTer here, whether you agree/disagree with me. I just think that Airpoints can do much better, both Air NZ and flyers, premium or not, can benefit from an enlarged/more inclusive program.
Cheers to all
Last edited by milehighclubnz; Apr 13, 2009 at 4:21 am Reason: more comments
Apr 14, 2009, 4:35 am
#28
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,315
I've got to say milehighclubnz, your post count might not be too high right now - around 185 as I write this - but your wordcount in this thread alone probably breaks all kinds of records!
Anyway, you write to stewardo "you miss the points of loyalty programs - it's about customer retention and revenue generation".
Whataloadofoldcobblers. Customer retention and revenue generation are issues requiring some lead action - maybe schmoozing or discounting. Loyalty programmes - especially FFPs - are lag measures. The customer pays for their reward long before they get to see it.
In the specific case of FFPs, loyalty programmes are about rewarding those customers who provide regular valuable business. As a customer you could be regular and valuable e.g. the truly frequent corporate J pax. Or you could be irregular and valuable e.g. the once-a-year retired leisure J pax (and maybe AKLDUBFlyer because of flying patterns?). Or you could be regular and provide no real value e.g. the student grabaseater. And finally you could be irregular and provide little value e.g. you by the sound of it.
For the first, the AirPoints programme might not be the best FFP out there, but what the customer doesn't know probably won't hurt them. For the second, NZ probably has a captive audience for the retired leisure pax but probably misses a trick with respect to the knowledgable flyer with a discretionary spend. And for the the last two NZ could probably care less.
Anyway, you write to stewardo "you miss the points of loyalty programs - it's about customer retention and revenue generation".
Whataloadofoldcobblers. Customer retention and revenue generation are issues requiring some lead action - maybe schmoozing or discounting. Loyalty programmes - especially FFPs - are lag measures. The customer pays for their reward long before they get to see it.
In the specific case of FFPs, loyalty programmes are about rewarding those customers who provide regular valuable business. As a customer you could be regular and valuable e.g. the truly frequent corporate J pax. Or you could be irregular and valuable e.g. the once-a-year retired leisure J pax (and maybe AKLDUBFlyer because of flying patterns?). Or you could be regular and provide no real value e.g. the student grabaseater. And finally you could be irregular and provide little value e.g. you by the sound of it.
For the first, the AirPoints programme might not be the best FFP out there, but what the customer doesn't know probably won't hurt them. For the second, NZ probably has a captive audience for the retired leisure pax but probably misses a trick with respect to the knowledgable flyer with a discretionary spend. And for the the last two NZ could probably care less.
Apr 17, 2009, 5:21 am
#29
Join Date: Jul 2008
Programs: Club Carlson Gold, AMEX Platinum, EBG
Posts: 397
I'm very happy with Airpoints.
I hit Gold Elite each year by flying typically one trip in BP to the USA,one in BP to the UK and one in BC to Tahiti, and so do my wife and kids.
And this allows us two long-haul upgrades each year,which we apply to a full Economy fare to HNL for a family holiday.
The program is designed to reward high-value passengers like us and to drive away people like the OP who aren't loyal passengers and who want rewards even though they deliver no custom to the airline. Fine by me.
I hit Gold Elite each year by flying typically one trip in BP to the USA,one in BP to the UK and one in BC to Tahiti, and so do my wife and kids.
And this allows us two long-haul upgrades each year,which we apply to a full Economy fare to HNL for a family holiday.
The program is designed to reward high-value passengers like us and to drive away people like the OP who aren't loyal passengers and who want rewards even though they deliver no custom to the airline. Fine by me.
If you aren't koruman I apologise.
Apr 17, 2009, 10:02 am
#30
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PHX
Programs: AA1MM, QF/NZ/VA/UA/DL, etc...
Posts: 516
I think it really depends on your flying pattern and what you want out of it.
Although I agree with many of the arguments about lack of earning partners, being a US citizen who flies between the USA and NZ fairly regularly, I have noticed a couple things.
I still find AP an easier program to get UG's from Y to J and have had a good success rate, thanks to ExpertFlyer's website. This has saved me thousands of dollars. With UA MP, this was not really possible. I tend to prefer to use my miles/APD for upgrades, rather than outright buy award tix.
There are so many earning partners here in the USA, that I wonder if it dilutes the intrinsic value of miles? Or perhaps maybe I just suffering marketing fatigue from every airline, company, retail store having their own special programs, frequent cards, etc!
That being said, I do find UA much easier for my USA-Asia travel options, and I don't frequent Europe, so my needs are vastly different from others I presume.
Although I agree with many of the arguments about lack of earning partners, being a US citizen who flies between the USA and NZ fairly regularly, I have noticed a couple things.
I still find AP an easier program to get UG's from Y to J and have had a good success rate, thanks to ExpertFlyer's website. This has saved me thousands of dollars. With UA MP, this was not really possible. I tend to prefer to use my miles/APD for upgrades, rather than outright buy award tix.
There are so many earning partners here in the USA, that I wonder if it dilutes the intrinsic value of miles? Or perhaps maybe I just suffering marketing fatigue from every airline, company, retail store having their own special programs, frequent cards, etc!
That being said, I do find UA much easier for my USA-Asia travel options, and I don't frequent Europe, so my needs are vastly different from others I presume.