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Old Dec 11, 2008 | 9:15 am
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CityJet / VLM News

Finally some news about VLM/CityJet. It looks like CityJet will take over LCY-AMS and VLM will take over LCY-EIN. VLM will keep Rotterdam.

I'll miss the F50 on the LCY-AMS route, while I'm sure others will prefer a jet.

Details here: http://www.cityjet.com/newsflashes/n...t-in-2009.html

Same on VLM site (don't like the new banner at the top of the page): http://www.flyvlm.com/emc.asp?pageId=1328
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Old Dec 11, 2008 | 9:35 am
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I will miss the F50...

The end of an era of the F50 service to Amsterdam originally started by Air UK.

I will miss the F50, they are nice an roomy, unlike the CityJet RJ85 and KLM did provide a nice service at all times of day.

let's hope the fares don't go up to much and KLM continues to provide relatively good deals on connection to NA.
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Old Dec 11, 2008 | 9:53 am
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Still showing as a F50 all next year on the KLM website. As there's middle seats on the Avro KLM could finally start offering a real Europe Select experience on this route. Shame CityJet will spoil it by blocking the middle seat in C

Advantages of the F50 in my eyes... the take off at LCY (brakes on, rev engine...), the seats are wider than the Avro and I've always had great staff on this route (although my recent CityJet experiences have had good service too).

Odd, the CityJet timetable from 5 Jan lists all the LCY-AMS flights as VG flight numbers, although you'd expect AF as the primary flight number and KL/VG as codeshares.

Last edited by browserden; Dec 11, 2008 at 10:03 am
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Old Dec 12, 2008 | 3:54 am
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To be honest, on such a short flight I did not really care if the flight uses an F50, AR8 or even D38 if it pleases them. To me, the main consequence is that cityjet will thus use several of its aircrafts to operate routes that were previously operated by KL, so that consequently, it will not open new routes and might even end up closing some more To me, this is further decline in Cityjet's LCY operations rather than an improvement. The airline is increasingly used to serve the AF KL hubs of AMS, ORY and CDG instead of a distinct 'CItyjet for Air France' autonomous network from LCY which was great and highly successful but is melting away from month to month.
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Old Dec 12, 2008 | 7:21 am
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Originally Posted by orbitmic
To be honest, on such a short flight I did not really care if the flight uses an F50, AR8 or even D38 if it pleases them. To me, the main consequence is that cityjet will thus use several of its aircrafts to operate routes that were previously operated by KL, so that consequently, it will not open new routes and might even end up closing some more To me, this is further decline in Cityjet's LCY operations rather than an improvement. The airline is increasingly used to serve the AF KL hubs of AMS, ORY and CDG instead of a distinct 'CItyjet for Air France' autonomous network from LCY which was great and highly successful but is melting away from month to month.
I was thinking the same, but it's not necessarily the case.

There's a number of aircraft being freed up:

1. The ScotAirways Dorniers that currently serve Eindhoven.
2. The VLM and KLM Cityhopper F50's that currently serve the LCY-AMS route. Some of the KLC F50's may be rebadged VLM and start running LCY ops.

Although from what route are the CityJet AR8's coming off or are they currently spare capacity?

I do agree the CityJet for AF network has lost some of its original promise, but then again they'd be crazy not to increase capacity on a route that is very profitable both as a point to point and a hub feeder.
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Old Dec 13, 2008 | 1:42 am
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Originally Posted by browserden
I was thinking the same, but it's not necessarily the case.

There's a number of aircraft being freed up:

1. The ScotAirways Dorniers that currently serve Eindhoven.
2. The VLM and KLM Cityhopper F50's that currently serve the LCY-AMS route. Some of the KLC F50's may be rebadged VLM and start running LCY ops.

Although from what route are the CityJet AR8's coming off or are they currently spare capacity?

I do agree the CityJet for AF network has lost some of its original promise, but then again they'd be crazy not to increase capacity on a route that is very profitable both as a point to point and a hub feeder.
I think they have 2 more RJ85's coming online... according to Jethros: http://jethros.eu/fleets/fleet_listings/cityjet.htm 2 RJ's are joining from Safair, plus they use some Regional Airlines capacity.

Who knows.
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Old Dec 13, 2008 | 3:18 am
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Well, the routes they have already deserted include Madrid, Zurich, Belfast, Nice coming down from daily to twice weekly (bad days too!), Strasbourg down from three to two daily, Scotland losing one of its original destinations, etc. It's true that the Dornier will be freed from Eindhoven but that was a much smaller operation than 8 daily to AMS, and thy don't have the same range as the AR8. To be honest, I would also be surprised if the Cityhopper F50s were indeed allocated to LCY, but maybe I'm too much of a pessimist!
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Old Dec 13, 2008 | 5:21 am
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Originally Posted by orbitmic
Scotland losing one of its original destinations
Really? Which destination is that? I hope it's not DND!
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Old Dec 13, 2008 | 7:24 am
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Originally Posted by orbitmic
Well, the routes they have already deserted include Madrid, Zurich, Belfast, Nice coming down from daily to twice weekly (bad days too!), Strasbourg down from three to two daily, Scotland losing one of its original destinations, etc. It's true that the Dornier will be freed from Eindhoven but that was a much smaller operation than 8 daily to AMS, and thy don't have the same range as the AR8. To be honest, I would also be surprised if the Cityhopper F50s were indeed allocated to LCY, but maybe I'm too much of a pessimist!
Originally Posted by Concerto
Really? Which destination is that? I hope it's not DND!
If they were cutting one of the Scottish destinations then DND would be the logical choice. But if they cut that then I can see them totally ditching their partnership with ScotAirways for the lease of the Dorniers. In that case would it be possible for ScotAirways to resurrect the route themselves?

The DND flights are still bookable well into 2009. Is there a source claiming they're planning on scrapping a Scottish destination? I remember reading somewhere CityJet confirming their commitment to Scotland saying something like as they're an Irish airline they have a natural affinity with Scotland (then again ScotAirways is English).
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Old Dec 15, 2008 | 6:28 am
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Originally Posted by layz
I remember reading somewhere CityJet confirming their commitment to Scotland saying something like as they're an Irish airline they have a natural affinity with Scotland (then again ScotAirways is English).
I've nothing against either EDI or DND, but if they're that committed to Scotland, why no routes (neither CityJet nor VLM) to its largest city (=GLA) ??
The only FB/Skyteam route ex GLA (excepting the soon-to-be-departed CO flight to EWR) is KLM's 4-a-day to/from AMS: it's not so difficult or expensive to do GLA-EDI but the gesture would be appreciated.
-- Henry
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Old Dec 15, 2008 | 8:06 am
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Originally Posted by Henry III
I've nothing against either EDI or DND, but if they're that committed to Scotland, why no routes (neither CityJet nor VLM) to its largest city (=GLA) ??
The only FB/Skyteam route ex GLA (excepting the soon-to-be-departed CO flight to EWR) is KLM's 4-a-day to/from AMS: it's not so difficult or expensive to do GLA-EDI but the gesture would be appreciated.
-- Henry
I was only quoting some marketing that I read, I know it really means nothing - but it would have been an odd thing to say if they knew a route chop was around the corner.

I can't see the market for GLA-EDI. The cities are a very short distance apart and neither end is a SkyTeam hub. It does seem odd that GLA has no direct link to CDG and indeed BHD was chosen ahead of GLA in the original CityJet expansion (back at the time no one operated LCY-GLA).

Overall, AF's coverage of the UK is significantly poorer than what KL offers. SOU is one of the few airports served by AF and not KL.
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Old Dec 15, 2008 | 8:12 am
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Originally Posted by layz
I can't see the market for GLA-EDI. The cities are a very short distance apart and neither end is a SkyTeam hub. .

I don't think Henry was suggesting anybody should fly GLA-EDI, but rather anywhere to GLA or EDI.
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Old Dec 15, 2008 | 9:34 am
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Originally Posted by Mofomat
I don't think Henry was suggesting anybody should fly GLA-EDI, but rather anywhere to GLA or EDI.
Indeed not! I was only saying that, as a resident of GLA, it's relatively easy, quick and cheap for me to get (overland) to EDI; in fact, the combined train+airport bus fare to EDI is cheaper than a taxi to GLA (but it takes a wee bit longer).

Also, I'm sure that slots are readily available at GLA - for routes such as CDG, LCY (LGW would be nice, but slim chance, I feel) and DUB.

And what may happen after CO jump ship - will DL add GLA to their network? They already do EDI-JFK(?)/ATL several times weekly, I think.
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Old Dec 16, 2008 | 4:33 am
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Originally Posted by Henry III
Indeed not! I was only saying that, as a resident of GLA, it's relatively easy, quick and cheap for me to get (overland) to EDI; in fact, the combined train+airport bus fare to EDI is cheaper than a taxi to GLA (but it takes a wee bit longer).

Also, I'm sure that slots are readily available at GLA - for routes such as CDG, LCY (LGW would be nice, but slim chance, I feel) and DUB.

And what may happen after CO jump ship - will DL add GLA to their network? They already do EDI-JFK(?)/ATL several times weekly, I think.
OK, I read that wrong. I thought you were saying it'd not be too expensive for an airline to operate GLA-EDI which at the time I thought sounded a bit insane Then again a short hop GLA-EDI would add an extra segment and 750 miles to your itinerary... Let's convince AF that it's a good idea
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Old Dec 16, 2008 | 6:38 am
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Originally Posted by layz
Then again a short hop GLA-EDI would add an extra segment and 750 miles to your itinerary... Let's convince AF that it's a good idea
@:-) (Actually, I have heard rumours of large-ish charter-flight/package aircraft to/from Mediterranean resorts that 'bounce' at EDI before going on to GLA!)

But it may be possible to persuade AF to open the LCY-GLA route: currently, there are 7 LCY-EDI/EDI-LCY flights each weekday and 1 each on Sats/Suns, plus 4 weekday LCY-DND & vv + 1 Sat + 2 Sun.

I generally do EDI-LCY on a weekday and LCY-EDI on Sat or Sun: the weekday flights are often less than half full (even on the wee Dorniers) but the Sat/Sun is nearly always packed full. Now, I'm no expert in how slots at LCY are allocated/managed, but I imagine there would be no problem switching, say, 2 or 3 EDI flights to GLA (no net gain/loss of slots) and adding 1 GLA return on weekends (less of a premium at w/e?): it may even increase the load factors, as some Glaswegian folks aren't happy about using EDI (or are unaware of the route). And the same could apply to the EDI-CDG schedule (GLA-CDG would be excellent hub-feeder for AF, just as GLA-AMS is for KLM - and they do both GLA & EDI, quite successfully)!

OK, so there's no AF/CityJet presence (yet) at GLA but KLM have a booth, and check-in is all done by ServisAir (or some such party) these days.

Anyone at AF listening?

-- Henry

PS: Opening up GLA-LCY could also add some 'heat' to the on-going cold-war between M. Spinetta and the Leary Leprechaun (viz the AZ & EI sagas): his offering of PIK-STN doesn't really compete!

Last edited by Henry III; Dec 16, 2008 at 6:47 am Reason: Added a postscript
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