"Denied Boarding" rules and advice
Dec 23, 2023, 3:38 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2017
Programs: Flying Blue Platinum
Posts: 223
"Denied Boarding" rules and advice
Moderators, apologise if there is already a thread on this or if it should be posted in the general EU261 compensation thread.
However, having a hard time convincing KLM/Air France (who replied to my complaint) that I was denied boarding and deserve some recompense for our troubles. I have posted bits of the story on other threads but thought I would put all the info in one thread. Not sure if I am being unreasonable or have a genuine reason to be unhappy with both the situation and the reply sent - thoughts?
My good lady and I (both platinum for many years) had a weekend trip to Munich from Aberdeen between Fri 8th Dec until Mon 11th Dec. Night before our outgoing flight we got a message to say our first flight out of ABZ was cancelled so I called up and got rearranged onto a later flight which still got us into Munich at the correct time albeit with a very tight connection in AMS which we caught ok - no issue with this at all.
Fun starts on the Monday when we are due to head home. Our flight booked were for the 11:40 (KL1794) to AMS from Munich followed by the 16:10 (KL1447) to Aberdeen. All good so far. We check out of our hotel at approx 08:30 and catch the train to airport. Whilst on the train we get a message to say our 16:10 flight to Aberdeen has been cancelled and that they were looking for alternative options and they would be in touch.
We have our paper tickets printed out so use these to get through security and stroll to the lounge. Whilst standing with the lady at the lounge booking us in at approx 09:30 we get a message to say they have found alternate flights and we are now booked on the 20:05 (KL1800) to Amsterdam followed by a flight to Aberdeen the next day at 08:00 (KL1441). I immediately call up the platinum line and ask why we have been taken off the 11:40 flight from Munich to Amsterdam. Lady said its because it is cancelled. I check with lady in lounge and she said no word of it being cancelled only a bit late. I go to the gate of the earlier KLM flight (delayed) and ask the lady there if the next flight to AMS is cancelled and she says no, only late. Call up Platinum line again and lady is insisting the 11:40 flight is cancelled but the airport is slow to update their flight info and inform gate agents and passengers.
Oh well I though, lets relax. Then hear an announcement saying the 11:40 flight is delayed so I go to the gate agent and she confirms flight is not cancelled and that my wife and I are not on it. Show her our printed boarding passes and lady says, you are off the flight now so nothing I can do. Call up Platinum Line for a third time and get tell gent we are exceedingly unhappy on the way we had been treated and he says he has found seats on the flight due to leave at 14:15 (KL1796) to AMS and also seats on the last flight to ABZ that night. However, he says he cannot get us on the 11:40 flight as its full now. Bit my tongue and waited until boarding was almost complete and once again asked gate agent if we could get on using our printed tickets we had for this flight - she said no, nothing she could do and she told me the flight was not full with seats still available on it.
We did get the 14:15 flight and got into AMS and the NS lounge after 20:00 and went to speak to the ladies who have their desks beside the lockers. Lady confirmed we had been treated badly and we should certainly complain which we did. Reply we got from Flying Blue (Air France) was as follows (despite us being clear it was the denied boarding we were unhappy about and not the delayed arrival time into Aberdeen) -
Dear Mr Billyfergus,
I am sorry that your flight from Amsterdam to Aberdeen on December 11th was cancelled because of bad weather condition.
However, the reason for this cancellation is regarded as an extraordinary circumstance and therefore the compensation set by the EC Regulation 261/2004 does not apply.
Also, we have complied with our obligations to limit as much as possible the inconvenience caused by this circumstance; therefore, I cannot respond favourably to your request.
We look forward to welcoming you on board our flights again soon and hope that in future everything will be to your entire satisfaction.
Best regards,
DOMINGUE. A
However, having a hard time convincing KLM/Air France (who replied to my complaint) that I was denied boarding and deserve some recompense for our troubles. I have posted bits of the story on other threads but thought I would put all the info in one thread. Not sure if I am being unreasonable or have a genuine reason to be unhappy with both the situation and the reply sent - thoughts?
My good lady and I (both platinum for many years) had a weekend trip to Munich from Aberdeen between Fri 8th Dec until Mon 11th Dec. Night before our outgoing flight we got a message to say our first flight out of ABZ was cancelled so I called up and got rearranged onto a later flight which still got us into Munich at the correct time albeit with a very tight connection in AMS which we caught ok - no issue with this at all.
Fun starts on the Monday when we are due to head home. Our flight booked were for the 11:40 (KL1794) to AMS from Munich followed by the 16:10 (KL1447) to Aberdeen. All good so far. We check out of our hotel at approx 08:30 and catch the train to airport. Whilst on the train we get a message to say our 16:10 flight to Aberdeen has been cancelled and that they were looking for alternative options and they would be in touch.
We have our paper tickets printed out so use these to get through security and stroll to the lounge. Whilst standing with the lady at the lounge booking us in at approx 09:30 we get a message to say they have found alternate flights and we are now booked on the 20:05 (KL1800) to Amsterdam followed by a flight to Aberdeen the next day at 08:00 (KL1441). I immediately call up the platinum line and ask why we have been taken off the 11:40 flight from Munich to Amsterdam. Lady said its because it is cancelled. I check with lady in lounge and she said no word of it being cancelled only a bit late. I go to the gate of the earlier KLM flight (delayed) and ask the lady there if the next flight to AMS is cancelled and she says no, only late. Call up Platinum line again and lady is insisting the 11:40 flight is cancelled but the airport is slow to update their flight info and inform gate agents and passengers.
Oh well I though, lets relax. Then hear an announcement saying the 11:40 flight is delayed so I go to the gate agent and she confirms flight is not cancelled and that my wife and I are not on it. Show her our printed boarding passes and lady says, you are off the flight now so nothing I can do. Call up Platinum Line for a third time and get tell gent we are exceedingly unhappy on the way we had been treated and he says he has found seats on the flight due to leave at 14:15 (KL1796) to AMS and also seats on the last flight to ABZ that night. However, he says he cannot get us on the 11:40 flight as its full now. Bit my tongue and waited until boarding was almost complete and once again asked gate agent if we could get on using our printed tickets we had for this flight - she said no, nothing she could do and she told me the flight was not full with seats still available on it.
We did get the 14:15 flight and got into AMS and the NS lounge after 20:00 and went to speak to the ladies who have their desks beside the lockers. Lady confirmed we had been treated badly and we should certainly complain which we did. Reply we got from Flying Blue (Air France) was as follows (despite us being clear it was the denied boarding we were unhappy about and not the delayed arrival time into Aberdeen) -
Dear Mr Billyfergus,
I am sorry that your flight from Amsterdam to Aberdeen on December 11th was cancelled because of bad weather condition.
However, the reason for this cancellation is regarded as an extraordinary circumstance and therefore the compensation set by the EC Regulation 261/2004 does not apply.
Also, we have complied with our obligations to limit as much as possible the inconvenience caused by this circumstance; therefore, I cannot respond favourably to your request.
We look forward to welcoming you on board our flights again soon and hope that in future everything will be to your entire satisfaction.
Best regards,
DOMINGUE. A
Dec 23, 2023, 4:38 am
#2
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: London, UK and Southern France
Posts: 18,367
Just to be clear, the second flight (AMS-ABZ) was actually cancelled, was it not? And getting on the original 11:40 MUC-AMS would not have gotten you to ABZ any earlier than the time at which you eventually arrived?
If so, I can see the logic of what they were doing: they put you on a later flight as there was no point in having you wait in AMS longer. Admittedly, they should have put you on the 2:15pm from MUC to connect to ABZ on the same day but that is what eventually happened anyway, so no harm done on that particular front.
As regards compensation, there is caselaw to the effect that compensation is not due when you are IDB'd on a flight and put on a later one if your arrival at destination is not delayed (IMO, this is a debatable of the Reg but, unless the ECJ overrules itself, it is the 'correct' one for the time being).
Your situation is slightly different but, going by the logic of that case, since you could not have arrived at ABZ any earlier even if they had put you on the 11:40 flight (given the cancellation of the original AMS-ABZ flight), IMO they are probably right, based on current caselaw, to deny compensation in this case if the cancellation of the AMS-ABZ can be justified by reference to extraordinary circumstances.
If so, I can see the logic of what they were doing: they put you on a later flight as there was no point in having you wait in AMS longer. Admittedly, they should have put you on the 2:15pm from MUC to connect to ABZ on the same day but that is what eventually happened anyway, so no harm done on that particular front.
As regards compensation, there is caselaw to the effect that compensation is not due when you are IDB'd on a flight and put on a later one if your arrival at destination is not delayed (IMO, this is a debatable of the Reg but, unless the ECJ overrules itself, it is the 'correct' one for the time being).
Your situation is slightly different but, going by the logic of that case, since you could not have arrived at ABZ any earlier even if they had put you on the 11:40 flight (given the cancellation of the original AMS-ABZ flight), IMO they are probably right, based on current caselaw, to deny compensation in this case if the cancellation of the AMS-ABZ can be justified by reference to extraordinary circumstances.
Dec 23, 2023, 5:47 am
#3
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2017
Programs: Flying Blue Platinum
Posts: 223
Just to be clear, the second flight (AMS-ABZ) was actually cancelled, was it not? And getting on the original 11:40 MUC-AMS would not have gotten you to ABZ any earlier than the time at which you eventually arrived?
If so, I can see the logic of what they were doing: they put you on a later flight as there was no point in having you wait in AMS longer. Admittedly, they should have put you on the 2:15pm from MUC to connect to ABZ on the same day but that is what eventually happened anyway, so no harm done on that particular front.
As regards compensation, there is caselaw to the effect that compensation is not due when you are IDB'd on a flight and put on a later one if your arrival at destination is not delayed (IMO, this is a debatable of the Reg but, unless the ECJ overrules itself, it is the 'correct' one for the time being).
Your situation is slightly different but, going by the logic of that case, since you could not have arrived at ABZ any earlier even if they had put you on the 11:40 flight (given the cancellation of the original AMS-ABZ flight), IMO they are probably right, based on current caselaw, to deny compensation in this case if the cancellation of the AMS-ABZ can be justified by reference to extraordinary circumstances.
If so, I can see the logic of what they were doing: they put you on a later flight as there was no point in having you wait in AMS longer. Admittedly, they should have put you on the 2:15pm from MUC to connect to ABZ on the same day but that is what eventually happened anyway, so no harm done on that particular front.
As regards compensation, there is caselaw to the effect that compensation is not due when you are IDB'd on a flight and put on a later one if your arrival at destination is not delayed (IMO, this is a debatable of the Reg but, unless the ECJ overrules itself, it is the 'correct' one for the time being).
Your situation is slightly different but, going by the logic of that case, since you could not have arrived at ABZ any earlier even if they had put you on the 11:40 flight (given the cancellation of the original AMS-ABZ flight), IMO they are probably right, based on current caselaw, to deny compensation in this case if the cancellation of the AMS-ABZ can be justified by reference to extraordinary circumstances.
Main reason we are upset is that we were checked in for the flight, had assigned seats for the flight, had the boarding cards for the flight, our flight was not cancelled and it did not leave full. Also to be told just over 2 hours before its due to leave that you are being taken off the flight and put on one that is due to leave over 8 hours later is not ideal for any customer let alone loyal platinum members like us.
If we had just accepted the flights we were offered we would not have arrived home until the next day and it was only after our third call to the Platinum Line that we eventually got put on an earlier flight and got a small apology from the. Platinum Line agent who was sorry for his colleagues who told us on two previous calls that the reason we were put off the 11:40 flight was because it was cancelled (which was not true).
Not sue about anybody else, but I would rather spend 8 hours in Schiphol instead of the rather compact terminal KLM use at Munich.