Trying to Understand Upgrade Availability for AF
Nov 27, 2018, 6:23 pm
#16
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: YOW
Programs: Flying Blue Plat, Accor Gold
Posts: 392
Another update as of today. . . I'm now seeing Z availability on this flight with Z9 showing in EF. When I check the same flight with KVS tool it shows award availability "CS+". When I look up "CS" on the KVS user guide for Air France it shows:
O/CS Business Award
This leads me to believe that "O" is the same as "CS" and therefore there should be "O" availability now for this flight. However, after just speaking with AF they are telling me there is no "O" availability. Is "O" and "CS" the same? What am I missing?
I also asked a couple of the FB agents "What is the likelihood that "O" will become available as the departure date nears. Both representatives gave me the impression that is it not likely and just said you can try to upgrade on DoD. If that's the case, can I upgrade 24 hours prior online? Phone? Or must I wait to get to the airport?
O/CS Business Award
This leads me to believe that "O" is the same as "CS" and therefore there should be "O" availability now for this flight. However, after just speaking with AF they are telling me there is no "O" availability. Is "O" and "CS" the same? What am I missing?
I also asked a couple of the FB agents "What is the likelihood that "O" will become available as the departure date nears. Both representatives gave me the impression that is it not likely and just said you can try to upgrade on DoD. If that's the case, can I upgrade 24 hours prior online? Phone? Or must I wait to get to the airport?
You can go to AF's website and see what is the minimum miles for an award BIZ ticket. Example, for the line I took the most often, YUL-CDG, it used to be 62500 before April 1st, and now it is 53000. So when for that specific date, you find there is an award ticket that is showing that value, there is an opening O class on that flight.
O available on AF345 but not AF349.
I checked on Flying Blue and it said the minimum miles that it need for a BIZ ticket is 57500. So if you can find a reward at that price, there is opening O seat:
AF007 is the only one that you can get a chance to upgrade with miles. (This screenshot took for a date somewhere in April though....)
PS: JFK-CDG is usually very tough to get upgraded. Good luck!
Nov 27, 2018, 6:47 pm
#17
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Programs: Marriott Platinum, American Airlines Gold
Posts: 26
@tbaiyun That is exactly what I did today. As a matter of fact I am flying on AF007. Today there is availability for an award seat at 57,500 miles for the date I'm traveling. Once I saw that I immediately called FB and told them I wanted to upgrade with miles. They told me it wasn't available for upgrade since there was no "O" availability. I told the agent but there is "O" availability given I can book it on the AF website for the least amount of miles (57,500). I even confirmed availability with EF. We went back and forth and I even tried to ask for a supervisor but was not successful. The agent kept repeating there must be "O" availability. So I'm completely lost on how they make these upgrades available since, like you, I thought there was "O" availability given there was award availability for biz class with the least amount of miles.
Nov 27, 2018, 7:28 pm
#18
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Worldwide
Posts: 12,949
When I check the same flight with KVS tool it shows award availability "CS+". When I look up "CS" on the KVS user guide for Air France it shows:
O/CS Business Award
This leads me to believe that "O" is the same as "CS" and therefore there should be "O" availability now for this flight. However, after just speaking with AF they are telling me there is no "O" availability. Is "O" and "CS" the same? What am I missing?
O/CS Business Award
This leads me to believe that "O" is the same as "CS" and therefore there should be "O" availability now for this flight. However, after just speaking with AF they are telling me there is no "O" availability. Is "O" and "CS" the same? What am I missing?
What is your flight date?
Nov 27, 2018, 11:26 pm
#19
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 760
I have filed a complaint at FB for a similar matter.
The “reinvented” FB did state that all seats could be upgrades subject to availability of course because they wanted to make the program “more simple”.
The opposite is true. Whereas before 1 June, availability of an award ticket would also mean availability for upgrade a paid ticmet with miles, now a upgrade with miles on a paid ticket is ridiculously blurry.
So the new new program caused:
- On long haul much less earnings (less than 40%)
- In general less earnings in total as a increased short haul earning can not compensate for the miles lost on long haul.
- much higher redemption rates. J cabins are now up to 500.000 miles for a one way ticket.
- much less redemption availability
This makes FB the least attractive FF program compared to Oneworld and Star Alliance programs.
FB DID admit to me that they couldn’t keep their promises that every paid seat was upgradable to a higher class of cabin subject to availability. It was a lie and they admitted it. I have it in an email from the PSL.
I find it disgraceful to punish their most loyal customers in this way. They know we can not be without them, at least for my sake. I need to fly shorthaul SkyTeam on a regular basis. There are no other reasonable options.
But on long haul there are many and I moved all my long haul to Oneworld and I am Sapphire there now. Also with lounge access and extra luggage etc.
And avios are much easier to use for upgrades and earnings are also much higher. It’s a no brainer for me. My precious FB miles got nearly worthless after 1 June.
The “reinvented” FB did state that all seats could be upgrades subject to availability of course because they wanted to make the program “more simple”.
The opposite is true. Whereas before 1 June, availability of an award ticket would also mean availability for upgrade a paid ticmet with miles, now a upgrade with miles on a paid ticket is ridiculously blurry.
So the new new program caused:
- On long haul much less earnings (less than 40%)
- In general less earnings in total as a increased short haul earning can not compensate for the miles lost on long haul.
- much higher redemption rates. J cabins are now up to 500.000 miles for a one way ticket.
- much less redemption availability
This makes FB the least attractive FF program compared to Oneworld and Star Alliance programs.
FB DID admit to me that they couldn’t keep their promises that every paid seat was upgradable to a higher class of cabin subject to availability. It was a lie and they admitted it. I have it in an email from the PSL.
I find it disgraceful to punish their most loyal customers in this way. They know we can not be without them, at least for my sake. I need to fly shorthaul SkyTeam on a regular basis. There are no other reasonable options.
But on long haul there are many and I moved all my long haul to Oneworld and I am Sapphire there now. Also with lounge access and extra luggage etc.
And avios are much easier to use for upgrades and earnings are also much higher. It’s a no brainer for me. My precious FB miles got nearly worthless after 1 June.
Nov 28, 2018, 12:21 am
#20
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Paris, France
Programs: AF/KL Flying Blue Platinum for life/Club2000 Ultimate, Accor ALL Diamond
Posts: 21,928
Another update as of today. . . I'm now seeing Z availability on this flight with Z9 showing in EF. When I check the same flight with KVS tool it shows award availability "CS+". When I look up "CS" on the KVS user guide for Air France it shows:
O/CS Business Award
This leads me to believe that "O" is the same as "CS" and therefore there should be "O" availability now for this flight. However, after just speaking with AF they are telling me there is no "O" availability. Is "O" and "CS" the same? What am I missing?
I also asked a couple of the FB agents "What is the likelihood that "O" will become available as the departure date nears. Both representatives gave me the impression that is it not likely and just said you can try to upgrade on DoD. If that's the case, can I upgrade 24 hours prior online? Phone? Or must I wait to get to the airport?
O/CS Business Award
This leads me to believe that "O" is the same as "CS" and therefore there should be "O" availability now for this flight. However, after just speaking with AF they are telling me there is no "O" availability. Is "O" and "CS" the same? What am I missing?
I also asked a couple of the FB agents "What is the likelihood that "O" will become available as the departure date nears. Both representatives gave me the impression that is it not likely and just said you can try to upgrade on DoD. If that's the case, can I upgrade 24 hours prior online? Phone? Or must I wait to get to the airport?
Nov 28, 2018, 7:33 am
#21
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: SJC / SFO
Programs: Flying Blue Platinum; Marriott Bonvoy Platinum; Hilton Gold
Posts: 785
btw. speaking of old program and W fare, it’s not true that you could always upgrade if Z is available (for 22500 miles instead of 15000). I remember one case, where mileage upgrade wasn’t available for CDG-SFO (there was $208 fare difference only for W to Z, so I just changed the ticket).
Nov 28, 2018, 3:41 pm
#23
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Worldwide
Posts: 12,949
There is definitely O (AKA CS) on that flight -- you may wish to try a different FB call centre:
[KVS Tool 9.1.0/Diamond - Awards/AF-SkyTeam/US-AF]
[KVS Tool 9.1.0/Diamond - Awards/AF-SkyTeam/US-AF]
Code:
NYC New York Metro NY US = JFK LGA EWR
PAR Paris Metro FR = CDG ORY BVA LBG XPG XJY
MON 24 Dec 2018 | 1 Seat
Carrier Flight From Depart To Arrive A/C St Award Availability
--------- ------ ---- -------- ---- -------- --- -- ------------------
AF 7 JFK 18:40 CDG 08:00 +1 388 CS+ WV+ YV+
AF 9 JFK 22:50 CDG 12:00 +1 772 CS+ WV+ YV+
AF 23 JFK 16:35 CDG 05:50 +1 77W CV+ WV+ YV+
AF 19 JFK 19:30 ORY 08:55 +1 772 CV+ WV+ YV+
AF 11 JFK 21:30 CDG 10:55 +1 772 CV+ WV+ YV+
KL 642 JFK 17:45 AMS 06:50 +1 744 CS+ WX/ YV+
-> KL 1229 AMS 08:10 +1 CDG 09:35 +1 738
KL 642 JFK 17:45 AMS 06:50 +1 744 CV+ WX/ YV+
-> AF 1241 AMS 09:25 +1 CDG 10:45 +1 321
KL 644 JFK 21:30 AMS 10:40 +1 789 CV+ WX/ YV+
-> KL 1233 AMS 12:25 +1 CDG 13:40 +1 738
AZ 611 JFK 21:50 FCO 12:05 +1 330 CS0 WS~ YS+
-> AF/JN 1105 FCO 13:05 +1 CDG 15:20 +1 320
DL 1 JFK 19:00 LHR 07:00 +1 333 CS+ WS~ YS0
-> AF 1681 LHR 09:00 +1 CDG 11:25 +1 32A
UX 92 JFK 22:05 MAD 11:25 +1 332 CS+ WS/ YS0
-> AF 1301 MAD 12:35 +1 CDG 14:40 +1 319
Nov 28, 2018, 4:32 pm
#24
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Programs: Marriott Platinum, American Airlines Gold
Posts: 26
There is definitely O (AKA CS) on that flight -- you may wish to try a different FB call centre:
[KVS Tool 9.1.0/Diamond - Awards/AF-SkyTeam/US-AF]
[KVS Tool 9.1.0/Diamond - Awards/AF-SkyTeam/US-AF]
Code:
NYC New York Metro NY US = JFK LGA EWR
PAR Paris Metro FR = CDG ORY BVA LBG XPG XJY
MON 24 Dec 2018 1 Seat
Carrier Flight From Depart To Arrive A/C St Award Availability
--------- ------ ---- -------- ---- -------- --- -- ------------------
AF 7 JFK 18:40 CDG 08:00 +1 388 CS+ WV+ YV+
AF 9 JFK 22:50 CDG 12:00 +1 772 CS+ WV+ YV+
AF 23 JFK 16:35 CDG 05:50 +1 77W CV+ WV+ YV+
AF 19 JFK 19:30 ORY 08:55 +1 772 CV+ WV+ YV+
AF 11 JFK 21:30 CDG 10:55 +1 772 CV+ WV+ YV+
KL 642 JFK 17:45 AMS 06:50 +1 744 CS+ WX/ YV+
-> KL 1229 AMS 08:10 +1 CDG 09:35 +1 738
KL 642 JFK 17:45 AMS 06:50 +1 744 CV+ WX/ YV+
-> AF 1241 AMS 09:25 +1 CDG 10:45 +1 321
KL 644 JFK 21:30 AMS 10:40 +1 789 CV+ WX/ YV+
-> KL 1233 AMS 12:25 +1 CDG 13:40 +1 738
AZ 611 JFK 21:50 FCO 12:05 +1 330 CS0 WS~ YS+
-> AF/JN 1105 FCO 13:05 +1 CDG 15:20 +1 320
DL 1 JFK 19:00 LHR 07:00 +1 333 CS+ WS~ YS0
-> AF 1681 LHR 09:00 +1 CDG 11:25 +1 32A
UX 92 JFK 22:05 MAD 11:25 +1 332 CS+ WS/ YS0
-> AF 1301 MAD 12:35 +1 CDG 14:40 +1 319
Nov 28, 2018, 6:12 pm
#25
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: 🇸🇬 🇭🇰 🇫🇷
Programs: Many
Posts: 4,749
Since the FB dynamic pricing scheme for awards is in place, it is true though that awards such as STR-CDG-JFK can have a lower mileage than the direct CDG-JFK (and vice versa).
But I thought married segments restrictions only applied to revenue fares, not awards nor upgrades. If effectively in place that would be a serious change to the program.
By the way ExpertFlyer is currently showing O0 for AF7 on 24th Dec. I know that availability can vary anytime but that is strange to me that KVS is showing a different result.
But I thought married segments restrictions only applied to revenue fares, not awards nor upgrades. If effectively in place that would be a serious change to the program.
By the way ExpertFlyer is currently showing O0 for AF7 on 24th Dec. I know that availability can vary anytime but that is strange to me that KVS is showing a different result.
Nov 29, 2018, 8:01 am
#26
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Programs: Marriott Platinum, American Airlines Gold
Posts: 26
Since the FB dynamic pricing scheme for awards is in place, it is true though that awards such as STR-CDG-JFK can have a lower mileage than the direct CDG-JFK (and vice versa).
But I thought married segments restrictions only applied to revenue fares, not awards nor upgrades. If effectively in place that would be a serious change to the program.
By the way ExpertFlyer is currently showing O0 for AF7 on 24th Dec. I know that availability can vary anytime but that is strange to me that KVS is showing a different result.
But I thought married segments restrictions only applied to revenue fares, not awards nor upgrades. If effectively in place that would be a serious change to the program.
By the way ExpertFlyer is currently showing O0 for AF7 on 24th Dec. I know that availability can vary anytime but that is strange to me that KVS is showing a different result.
Dec 1, 2018, 5:09 am
#27
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: AMS
Programs: Hilton Diamond, FB Plat
Posts: 312
Also would it make sense for me to reach out to another call center? I've read on this forum that sometimes that helps. If so, how do I get in touch with another call center and which one(s) do you suggest. I've been calling the main FB number from the US 800-375-8723.
Dec 1, 2018, 2:32 pm
#28
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Worldwide
Posts: 12,949
Again I only want to upgrade on the JFK-CDG which does show "O" availability in the KVS tool. Also would it make sense for me to reach out to another call center? I've read on this forum that sometimes that helps. If so, how do I get in touch with another call center and which one(s) do you suggest. I've been calling the main FB number from the US 800-375-8723.
Dec 1, 2018, 10:12 pm
#29
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hong Kong, France
Programs: FB , BA Gold
Posts: 15,557
If CS=O, why the difference? POS?
Dec 2, 2018, 5:16 am
#30
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: 🇸🇬 🇭🇰 🇫🇷
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Posts: 4,749
Unless I am mistaken, there is no dynamic pricing for upgrades with FB ; only for awards. Upgrades remain ruled by the old availability scheme of F, O and A. And these upgrade class codes are also reflecting awards availability for partners.
Therefore I cannot understand why KVS is showing upgrade availability for OP to upgrade from premium economy to the business cabin whereas ExpertFlyer and FB agents say the opposite.
Dear KVS: could you elaborate. I thought that EF updated awards like once a day. But the discrepancyon O awards has been going on for many many days. EF shows O0 C9. Is CS on KVS really identical to O? or doe sit include award for elites (C)
If CS=O, why the difference? POS?
If CS=O, why the difference? POS?