michiganjd

I searched and read posts concerning PE upgrades (S &W classes) to Business on Air France. I understand O availability and the limitations of using Skymiles.

I am a Diamond Medallion, but still want to accumulate MQMs. Essentially, I want to have the FB miles solely for TATL upgrades. My ticket is 057 stock and the AF system recognizes me as a FB Platinum.

I'm flying in a qualifying fare (S) to Europe around Christmas. The flight over has 10 unsold business seats and the flight back has 18 unsold business seats. PE is sold out on the flight over and there are 5 vacant PE seats on the flight back. This obviously can change.

I can transfer various credit card and hotel points to raise the necessary FB points.

I would appreciate advice on

(1) Whether to transfer points to FB miles for use at the airport if unsold business seats remain;
(2) The cash price for Texas-Paris flights to buy up at the airport or at check-in on Air France; and
(3) Whether any O availability may open up to partners during this time of year prior to the 24-48 hour cutoff for the Diamond desk to process an upgrade using Delta instruments.

I would greatly appreciate any suggestions.

currentjer

You should be able to upgrade with FB miles if there is O availability - and you should do so before DoD. O availability fluctuates greatly, and it's also true that FB gets wider access to O inventory than SM. It doesn't matter on what stock the AF/KL flights are issued - as long as the flights are in the right fare class, FB can reissue the ticket with FB miles into the higher class of service on 074/054 (usually former).

TO NOTE: Your ticket will be reissued into O class from S/W, and that has some trouble accruing points with partners. Ergo, remove FFP from ticket/boardingpasses, keep your original ticket receipt + new upgraded ticket receipt - and then manually request for points/MQM later. Hope this helps.

michiganjd

Very helpful. Thank you very much for the advice.

orbitmic

How do you know there are 10/18 unsold business class seats?? If you base the assertion on unassigned seats in the cabin, not everyone pre assigns, and if you base it on buckets availability remember they do not add up (e.g j4 c3 d1 z0 does not mean 8 seats are available but most likely 4!)

Cash price for upgrade varies if available at all. Miles cannot be used for upgrade st the airport, only in advance and only if O is available.

Miles Upgrade is only into to lowest award band with both fb and sm. Also I don't think the system allows you to take out ffp number when you have used miles to upgrade (same for award tickets) but may be wrong.

I'd never transfer miles from elsewhere unless you are sure upgrade award space exists.

currentjer

Miles upgrade into F is into F itself - not a separate lowest award band. And yes, you can request for FB to help you remove the FFP number, can't do it yourself unfortunately.

orbitmic

But op doesn't want to upgrade into F, he/she wants to upgrade from paid s/w into business.

michiganjd

Thank you for the information. We will see what happens.

I have S-class PE fares. I've seen people do it in Houston ahead of me in A class with 15,000 FB miles and small cash upgrade (the monetary difference between A and S classes). Delta miles have to be used more than 24 hours in advance. I suspect that any O availability won't open up until less than 24 hours so as to avoid "sharing" with those that, like me, have many Delta miles to burn.

To answer another question, I know that J seats remain because I visited with KLM lounge on a recent flight. That information may not be correct of this date, but was when I wrote my original post.

The most interesting aspect will be whether I'll get the MQMs or not. I can try to ask for removal of all FB information and then get Delta to do a manual entry. I may have to decide if I want the MQMs or to be in PE. To each their own on that, but I'd probably take PE & MQMs if J had recliners and the reverse for flatbeds.

orbitmic

I think that there is a misunderstanding here: if you upgrade with miles (be they AF, DL or anyone else's) from an eligible paid ticket, you are entitled to the MQMs for your original paid ticket anyway. the only question is whether it is done automatically or whether the system mistakes your booking for an award ticket and you need to request an adjustment manually, but even if that is the case, you are still fully entitled to your miles (for PE obviously, not for J).

And no, if O space is released it is often a few days before flights take place but not necessarily (and in fact quite rarely) in the last 24 hours. If you are interested, you are best off checking very regularly but if you see it you'll need to act quickly.

michiganjd

Thank you for the comment.

I think that the issue is when using miles to upgrade whether the QUALIFYING miles have to post to the SAME account.

The issue, in other words, is if I use Skymiles to upgrade, must I get MQMs (DL QUALIFYING miles)? If I go to my FB account to take out 15K FB miles, must I get FB QUALIFYING miles? That is what one poster above disagreed on. Another poster stated to leave off the FB Ivory # on the pass and have my DL account credited manually based on the S & W purchased segments after such were flown. That is what I would try to do if I had to use FB and not DL miles to upgrade.

THANKS SO MUCH for the tips about O availability! I will start calling the DL DM desk daily for my Saturday flight. It is recliners in business class and the jet stream is forecasted to be strong (shorter flight) so this exercise will be more critical on my return flight.

[No matter what I'm entitled to some Redeemable Miles and Qualifying miles for a purchased PE ticket. The Redeemable miles vary too as my DL # makes me a "FB Plat" due to DM on DL while on FB I have no status. That calculation is unimportant to me.]

MSPeconomist

I think the issue is whether a passenger can use miles from one FF program, namely FB, to upgrade the flight and then credit the flight to some different partner FF program, namely DL.

It's a more extreme version in reverse of whether the OP could use a nonelite FB number on the reservation for crediting miles but use the DL DM elite card to enter lounges and get other SkyPriority benefits.

ADDED: OP may need to worry about how long it takes too transfer miles into FB (from SPG or AmEX? The source might make a difference) versus the potential eventual expiration of the orphan miles from an otherwise unused FF account if the upgrade cannot be confirmed.

Another issue is that our evidence suggests that FB members (or at least FB elites) get enhanced availability of O inventory on AF/KLM compared to the O inventory that's available to DL elites. IIRC EF shows the inventory for FB people, while DL can only see a subset of that bucket.

michiganjd

Thanks MSPEconomist. I always enjoy reading your posts on the main Delta forum.

Fortunately, the FB miles will be useful in one form or another---European family or intra-Europe flights. I actually have enough for one upgrade already in my FB account. My spouse is Polish (hence this Christmas trip) and I have many close friends in Spain. Between all of that the FB miles will be used eventually even if not on this trip. Like many here, I have plenty in all sorts. If I don't get it, I'd transfer or earn enough for intra-Europe ticket.

This exercise really derives from having to pay $2200 for S-class and O never dropping below $5K, which it is not worth (particularly for recliners) and when I routinely get D1 for $3K.

I had one of those folks mentioned above who is an FB elite do some checking for me. O is available on my return for FB elites in early January (not me yet). O is not available on Saturday for anyone and there are hardly any seats left now anywhere. Some sort of VDB may be more realistic.

The best option is still manual credit as suggested above. FB seems to allow raiding the account and not crediting the RDM/MQMs to that FB account.

The lounge issue is another good one. I'll take my physical DM card, but need "same-day international travel" & Elite+ status per ST rules. The lounge is much less important on the return for me.

In sum, it seems like I should have my friend look again in a few days and inquire at check-in in Houston, but be prepared for PE. If I get J on the return (or one way at all), I would be happy.

[Incidentally, when I booked the flight, it was a B777 with flat-beds. It got changed to an A330. I can't sleep in recliners at the times of US to Europe flights. I would have done a three-flight D1 (maybe MSP). A B777 is scheduled for my January return.]

orbitmic

You keep mentioning recliners (ie like the various us airlines domestic first seats) but AF doesn't have recliners in long haul J and hasn't had for years. They have the so called 'angled lie flat' which depending on the version are 176 degree seats so 'almost' flat but at the same time they are not horizontal (which is annoying!) are they what you mean or are you expecting something worse than you'd get?

michiganjd

Yes, I mean "angled lie flat." These seats seem similar to what was on the Northwest Airlines A330 World Business Class Product (Six across in J). I've also done KLM's WBC. The so-called "coffin" on DL's BE/D1 works better for me (B767/A330). A lot of it is the time of day of the flights.

I certainly don't want to be dismissive of AF's very good product. I've flown AF PE before. It is a good product and it appears that DL is going to implement something similar in the next few years. And I've had some of my best meals on AF's Intra-Europe business.

The complete lie-flat, horizontal seat is very important to me. I envy those who can sleep easily on airplanes.

orbitmic

There is no problem at all with criticising AF's old NEV seats - you'll find most of us here are very critical of them indeed! But I just wanted to make sure that you knew what to expect as people usually mention recliners when speaking of the "cradle" seats. The oldest version of the NEV seats are indeed quite similar to the old NW, the newer ones are much "flatter" if it makes sense (far more horizontal) but like you I much prefer fully flat and still feel that AF were very wrong to wait so long before realising. On the plus side, the choice that they have made when finally deciding to go fully flat has been for a very very good seat so if you get your upgrade on the a 777 with the "BEST " cabin (that's the acronym for the new cabins) you should have an excellent flight. Arguably, even on the 330 it will still be a huge step forward from PE (I personally dislike the PE seats especially on night flights) so personally I'd always upgrade if possible.

michiganjd

I'm in the AF lounge at IAH. I got an upgrade to business for 10K FB miles. They were oversold in economy but not PE.

My new boarding pass has my DL number on it as well as the ticket number and "J" class. Thus, miles should post automatically to DL, but I will certainly check.

That leaves me with just 7500 FB miles. I can shift some hotel reservations and pay for some I had for points to raise another 7500 FB miles. But it is certainly not guaranteed even at that point.

I feel bad for you guys at FB. On DL, at the holiday, I would have gotten an op-up without any problem.