irishguy28

Yes - I agree that it seems almost inevitable that BA will eventually stop its SYD flights, though they will probably survive the termination of the BA/QF joint venture and operate at least through the northern summer timetable next year.

If QR finally starts SYD next year, then I can imagine BA codesharing on it. But they could also codeshare into SYD with QF and/or CX as things stand.

KLflyerRalph

Not very earth shattering. Just strange that AB (as OW member) chooses AFKL as partner.

irishguy28

Not really - it was Etihad, and not Air Berlin, that did the choosing, afterall.

Perhaps if AB had been doing the negotiating, it would have gone with BA (which would give it access to most, if not all, of the UK and French destinations that AB will codeshare on AF/KL). But its parent was the one doing the negotiating here.

And out of the three alliances, oneworld is the one where you would be least surprised at the conclusion of agreements with airlines outside of the alliance.

NickB

AB already code-shares with BA on quite a few routes. I don't see the codeshare with AFKL as implying that this is going to end, anymore than, conversely, *A membership and close alliance/ownership by LH has prevented OS and LX from codesharing with AF on CDG routes.

irishguy28

QR's entry into onworld now confirmed

https://twitter.com/qatarairways/sta...67059121258496

Could a mod update this thread title? "possible" is no longer necessary in the title.

irishguy28

I'm not saying that AB is going to stop codesharing with BA. All I meant was that, without the Etihad involvement, AB would more likely have looked within the alliance first if it wanted further codesharing opportunities.

Not that Madrid, London, Moscow or Helsinki make particularly good transfer points for German passengers seeking points in most of Europe! They may have looked to AFKL, but then again, they may not have bothered, without Etihad taking the reins.

NickB

But that is a rather strange way to look at this, imo. You do not really set out to "codeshare with someone on some routes" in the abstract and then look at who you would like to codeshare with and on which routes. In other words, the fact that AB codeshares with AF does not increase or decrease in anyway the extent and likelihood of codeshares with BA or, for that matter, anybody else. These are discrete, unrelated decisions. It is not a case of "now they have chosen AF; that rules out an increase in cooperation with BA".

irishguy28

In my previous post I stated: "I'm not saying that AB is going to stop codesharing with BA". I now see that it is necessary for me to say that I don't see today's news as in any way related to past, present, or future cooperation with BA, or with the oneworld alliance. I'm not even saying that AB set out, in an abstract way, to see if they could, or should, add more codeshares. (I'm fairly sure that nothing would have changed, as regards AB, if they weren't currently part-owned by Etihad).

All I'm saying is that I think it is highly unlikely that we would have had any AB/AFKL codeshare or cooperation without the Etihad connection. It seems clear to me that the real deal here is between AFKL and EY. I don't think any of the airlines involved see the AB/AFKL cooperations as being the main focus here - they're just nice add-ons that came about as a result of Etihad's ownership of that particular airline.

brunos

I would agree. AB codeshare with AF is very limited and not an impediment to AB/BA codeshares. AB gets to codeshare on major French destinations from Paris and AF in exchange gets to codeshare and some "minor" international destinations served by AB. AF already puts a large number of airline codes on some of their domestic flights and the AB codeshare probably only applies to a few flights connecting to an AB flight. This is not a major agreement, just a small one that does not impede any other agreement between AB and other airlines. And the deal between AF and EY is equally limited. AF seems to abandon the AUH route to EY (anyway they had mostly lost it) and gets to codeshare on minor destinations to Colombo (Sri Lanka), Dhaka (Bangladesh), Katmandu* (Nepal), Mahe (Seychelles), and Male (Maldives). This is no big deal.
Future developments could make the partnership more intense, but currently "l'éléphant accouche d'une souris".

Irishguy28, please note that there are many codeshares across airlines from different alliances, this is not new. For example LH codeshares with QF to OZ, JL with AF, etc.., etc... These are all

irishguy28

Trust me, I know this. How have you both completely misinterpreted what I wrote? See my earlier posts in this thread. And all my posts on FT. And recall - my native FFP is Gold Circle (codeshares: BA, B6, EY, KL, UA).

NickB

That is because of the bit I quoted in post #109 above, viz. "Perhaps if AB had been doing the negotiating, it would have gone with BA". This suggests that there is an either/or there, whereas both are entirely unrelated to the other.
The confusion is further enhanced by the fact that you stated that BA served more or less all the destinations served by AFKL, reinforcing the idea of an either/or.

Take away the second para in your post and that source of potential confusion goes. Although, come to think of it, I am not sure about the third para, either. But I entirely agree with the first one.

orbitmic

To go back to the actual AB code share and it's possible developments I wonder if it means that AB will become the 'German FlyBe' of AF albeit with better service. Are we expecting AF and KL to drop smaller German airports from their network (eg if I remember correctly kl fly to cgn) and do we expect Niki flights to be added and if so the OS code share to go (this time more either/or as I can't imagine two separate code shares on Paris-Vienna !! And finally if the AB code share is all France-Germany AB flights could be great for the regions (eg Nce-dus or hamburg with AF!) but could mean the end of some base province flights from mrs and tls to Germany in favour of AB alternatives when they exist?

irishguy28

I can't see KL dropping the "smaller" German airports.

KL's German destinations (Berlin, Bremen, Cologne/Bonn, Düsseldorf, Frankfurt, Hamburg, Munich, Nuremberg, Stuttgart) all have relatively strong frequencies (typically at least 4 services per week day), and on the routes I travel frequently (Hamburg and Berlin) there always seem to be lots of passengers connecting to/from other KL/DL services.

All of these destinations (bar Bremen, which is only served seasonally by AB) could be reached by shuttling KLM passengers to Düsseldorf or Berlin and then placing them onto an AB service. (Note that AB does not serve Amsterdam).

But I think KL would be shooting themselves in the foot if they were to drop any of these destinations, thereby making those places reachable only via 2 intermediate stops in both Amsterdam and either Berlin/Düsseldorf. Customers in these hinterlands would then be far less likely to fly KLM when they would require 2 flights just to get to Amsterdam.

The only new locations within Germany that would open up to KLM if they were to codeshare on AB would be Dresden & Sylt (from Düsseldorf) and Karlsruhe/Baden-Baden & Saarbrücken (from Berlin).

irishguy28

I only used that formulation as it was a direct reply to KLFlyerRalph's quote:

So whatever concept you were attributing to me began there...

simonsmith

James Hogan: CEO Etihad says "The airline said explicitly that the codeshare agreement, which commences on 28-Oct-2012, is the “first phase of a much larger strategic partnership” and includes the “proposed integration of frequent flyer programs”, with “reciprocal ‘earn-and-burn’ privileges for 1.5 million Etihad Guest members and 21 million Air France-KLM Flying Blue frequent flyers across the combined networks”.

So merger of FFPs???? Some way off I guess