bigmillz

Hey all...I recently had a 10hr AF flight on a 777-300ER from JNB to CDG. I flew economy with the dual seat (forget the name, but just 2 of us) option. It was terrible.

I have a tough time sleeping on flights, and my Thinkpad never charges on them nor can I even open it fully. It has become really frustrating given I take fairly lengthy international flights every few weeks/one month at this point. I feel like I often lose 1-2 days of my trip just recovering from lack of sleep (very often 48+ hours with 1-2 layovers). It has even become a struggle to charge my phone on these budget flights.

I do fortunately get a fair amount of Amex MR points every month from my business, usually 20-40k or so. But being a small business owner & "normal" guy, I do try to justify my use of points. I am Delta Platinum...my friend who is Diamond has his weekly flights paid by his company and can, well, blow through everything with a lot less regret. For me, my points feel like my own money, and I can't just throw them around or book business class (even if I can write it off etc) without choking a bit at the cost.

Anyways, I'm strongly debating starting to fly business class for longer flights. Mostly for my own physical well-being and sanity! I don't need to be pampered, coddled, or given unlimited drinks. I just care about being able to sleep and not arrive at my destination ready to punch someone on 48 hours of sleep deprivation, or unable to move like a <40 year old because my body has been compacted for 6-12 hours. Domestically in the US, I fly Delta C+ quite happily...the upgrade cost is very reasonable and my legs don't feel like they're 80 years old when I arrive. Basically, I am responsible for my own business flight cost, but these economy flights are really wearing on me. I feel some people literally rely on alcohol or Ambien to get by, but I really don't believe in drugging myself or totally messing up my sleep schedule. I don't expect perfection at all...it's just embarrassing being unable to even work efficiently every time I land (not to mention having to compact myself to the extreme just to answer some emails on a flight).

Just curious if anyone can comment on this, esp with regards to KLM/AF. In the EU/over the Atlantic I do end up on either a lot, and I'm at the point I feel flying economy is costing me more. How is the experience with either flying Business or even just Premium Economy? Again, with strong consideration of getting some decent rest more than anything.

Thanks for your help.

NickB

To me, business and PE are night and day. The jump from PE to C is qualitatively different than the jump from Y to PE. This is especially true for night flights. PE or Y means non-sleep for me whereas C does mean sleep. It sounds like you have never flown business on long-haul. If so, do try it once to see the kind of difference it makes to you so that you can decide for yourself whether it warrants the additional expense or not.

BubbaX

My (public sector) job will only ever pay for an economy ticket. While long-haul J is often perceived and marketed as luxury, the point is to minimize the impact of travel: space to work, the ease of sleeping, routing in IRROPS and so on.
For many companies, the impressive premium that a business class fare has over economy is worth it: if you're paying a salary of $100K/year, that's $500/day, and if an economy fare means your employee can't work on the flight and is ineffective the next day, that's $1000 wasted.
Of course, travel affects people differently. I manage pretty well; with practice, I can sleep in full economy flights (window seat and earplugs helps). But I'll sleep better and be more effective in J.
PE? If I'm traveling East-to-West and not for work, I'll often choose PE: it's a little more space, and, half the time I end up with a miles upgrade or op-up into J. West-to-East, I try to get myself a bed.
Then the status helps my work flights: I work well in the lounges, on flights I often get a shadow, and, on long-haul occasionally an op-up into PE. Those overnight flights are still pretty harsh, but at least I can get a shower at the end.
So, if you're responsible for your business travel, maybe you should assess what impact the various classes have on your productivity.

maalloc

I've been in your exact same situation a few years ago, and it did change my travel habits completely.

When long-hauls stopped being once or twice per year and became a monthly thing, Long haul Y travel stopped being an option for the exact same reasons (impossible to work in the air, wasted time in airports, and 2 days each way to recover).
PE is not an option for me as Air France PE seats are great to work; but (YMMV) impossible to sleep in. The lack of recliner makes it perfect to give your laptop the room it needs, but is a back-killer.

So the 2cts I can offer is
1) Start with J travel. Being able to sleep in, use lounges, and work in the plane is a game changer. Even if the money (indirectly) comes from your own pocket, I found it to be worth every penny compared to basic Y travel
2) Build up status...
3) Then try status travel in Y: it's not that bad. These days I try to fly daytime LH in Y. With status, you can often score first rows, so no problem when it comes to work or stretching your legs. SkyPriority removes all this wasted time at the airport. Plus lounge access allows you to eat/drink/shower just before the LH leg which is also a game changer. When flying KL, you can get Eco Comfort which offers plenty of legroom (and pretty bad food & drinks so you can focus on work ). Now I'm back to flying Y most of the time, which makes a noticeable difference on the travel budget compared to bi-monthly J long hauls, and the toll it takes on the body is acceptable. Also, I found it somewhat easier to flight jet lag by working your way through timezones rather than sleeping comfortably in J bed. YMMV on that point of course.

Another technical remark because I also felt the same pain when it comes to working with a computer: my life changed when I upgraded to the latest Apple M1 laptop, which can be powered from any USB port. Basically as soon as you have 5-10W available, you can work on them without draining the battery. Even these weak USB ports that you find in the armrests in planes, buses or lounges are enough to keep it afloat. When it's not enough, the 12h battery is more than enough to last for the whole door-to-door flight.
Basically the "when's the next time I can plug my laptop in?" thought that kept running through my mind is now completely gone. And that is both relaxing and work-efficient. Maybe there are equivalent ultra-low-power Thinkpads these days. For less than the price of a J return ticket, you can be freed from this thought forever - I found it to be one of the best travel investments I ever made, right on par with noise-canceling headphones.

danfl44

I would recommend using some MR points to try both business and PE and see for yourself. 20-40k a month means some serious points balances. These balances easily buy you some business class tickets, although not every month. You might be able to leverage some more sign-up and upgrade bonuses to your advantage.

The difference between economy and business using cash can be significant, and I can imagine spending that amount of money is not acceptable. Using points efficiently, the difference between economy and business is MUCH less. You might be able to fly PE/J at least part of the time just by using your points. Especially if you use transfer bonuses and know the best options for your routes.

I am not sure about your knowledge level in the miles&points world, but if you sent me a private message, I would gladly help and look for an example for one of your upcoming trips, so you can try out longhaul business.

Goldorak

I fully agree with you. There is no way a human body can endure frequent long-haul travels, especially night flights in Y, and even in W, unless maybe if you are in your 20’s. J is the only way and should never be considered as a waste of money. Loosing days of productive work after each flight costs a lot.

HiAperture

While many, like myself, pursue Intl J flights for the enjoyment of it and use of the perks with the least possible outlay by leveraging points and miles, there is a reason it is called "business" class, and you pretty much just described it OP.

Srklaw7

I have found that using a combination of J and and PE works well. For me it is impossible to get decent sleep in PE. So I do it this way. When Flying from Europe to US the flights are mostly day flights. If you leave Europe at noon you will arrive at the west coast about 1500..Daylight the entire way. PE gives you far more room then Y. You can charge your devices and the recline is similar to that found on first class domestic. Then when flying from the US to Europe if you have a redeye you need to find a way to get a J ticket using your miles to upgrade from PE. Once you have a lie flat bed you will get some sleep. Hopefully that is a compromise.

Braniff

I agree with all the comments here but also bear in mind that Air France Premium Economy is just about the worst PE product on the market.

Goldorak

unless you are on recently delivered planes (A350, B787) or retrofitted planes (A332, B77W COI). And LH group just made an incredible mistake to choose a fixed shell W seat for LH and LX, while it’s well known that those seats are very bad for sleeping.

Srklaw7

Is there any chance AF will ever change that fixed shell W seat? why are they so committed to it?

Goldorak

It’s not that they are committed to it, but that’s the choice they have made 15 years ago. But they have now abandoned it for several years since the introduction of the B787. Then followed the A332 retrofit and the arrival of the A350.
I believe the B772 will keep the current ones as those planes are old and are going to be retired progressively (already started). For the non-COI B77W, some will also leave the fleet soon because of their age. For the others which still have the NEV4 in J, I think they are going to be retrofitted in W at the same time as the J retrofit.
Remain, with a question mark, the B77W with BEST J seat : I don’t know if they will see one day a new W seat. I hope.

Srklaw7

Right now for example most of the flights from CDG to LAX are B772. There is but one B773 flight. I would have thought AF would find that route more economical to use the 789.

darkrider

Is the AF product only terrible for sleeping? Several reviews say the padding is extremely thin and the seat is uncomfortable even for sitting. Would you avoid it when compared to other options (AA, UA, LH, etc.) or is it passable?

smartytravel

Hello, OP.

I think this will eventually come down to numbers, and whether you're comfortable spending your own money to feed airline executives.

Business class tickets are typically $2-3k more expensive than economy tickets.

If you fly 10x a year, you will be spending $20k-$30k more per year. That's a semester of tuition at a prestigious university in the US.