Nic33

Dear Forum Posters,

I am seeking advice with respect to the following fact pattern:

I purchased 2 tickets for my parents on AF from GVA-MIA via CDG in C for a flight on 1 March. Because of GVA airport being closed part of the day on 1 March due to snow, my parents were late for the CDG-MIA leg. AF provided food and accomodation and boarding passes for the same flight on the following day (AF090 CDG-MIA on A380).

On 2 March, AF090 took off, but returned after about 2 hours of flight to CDG due to a sick passenger. AF was not able to find a new crew on the same day (sic!) to proceed to the flight and sent all passengers to a hotel. Replacement flight was scheduled on 3 March on the same plane at 11:00.

On 3 March, passengers have been informed that (1) plane was not anymore an A380, but an A340 and that (2) it had technical issues. In addition my parents were downgraded from C to PE. Flight was further delayed by 1:45 hours.

I will not elaborate on AF's lack of proper handling of the situation, as it is not directly relevant here.

I am assuming that my parents can each claim EUR 600 compensation for the delay as well as 75% reduction for the downgrade. I am however not sure on whether the 75% reduction for the downgrade applies on the whole fare. Would someone have experience to share in this respect?

Thanks!

Ditto

Are you sure about the 600€? Weather/closed GVA airport will be considered "extraordinary circumstances", as well as a sick passenger I think, please report back though.

Nic33

Goldorak

I am no expert of this, but apart the downgrade, I don’t think they are entitled to EU261 compensation. However, they may expect a gesture from the airline.

Fabo.sk

They can definitely claim the downgrade compensation, however I think only on the sector affected.

With regard to the delay compensation, I personally think they should be entitled, based on on weather delay and medical return, but on the reason that the airline was not able to find sufficient staffing for a flight on Mar 2. Further delay on Mar 3 doesn't help AF case either.
But I think it would be a hard fight to fight.

CosmicGirl

When did they arrive at CDG the first day? Was it reasonable for AF to rebook them for the next day twice, or were other alternatives available that would've lead to an earlier arrival in Miami? Were they offered a different routing departing the first day and did they opt out of it in favour of the direct AF flight the next day? A case could be made that AF did not get them to their final destination at the earliest opportunity but that is dependent on all of the above.

brunos

This is a sad combination of extraordinary circumstances. The fact remains that the pax arrived more than two days late.

One problem with flights to the US is time difference. AF90 departs at 1:25pm. It seems impossible to provide a reroute to MIA after 3pm or so. Hence, if there is a problem on AF90, rerouting the same day will be tough. But they could have rerouted you the next day on AA which departs 3 hours earlier (if availability). I would still be surprised if AF did not provide the 600 compensation.

Regarding the 75% reimbursement for downgrade, airlines have their own ways to compute it. Typically, it will only apply to the segment fare involved. I think that you should ask for 75% of half the ticket price paid. They might offer less.

Often1

EC 261/2004 provides for three separate and distinct compensations and reimbursements:

#1 - Duty of care to include hotels, food, and local transport at CDG for two nights. It sounds as though they may have received that. If not, the parents ought to submit their receipts for reasonable accomodation to AF.

#2 - Downgrade reimbursement (not compensation). This is 75% of the base C fare paid. It applies no matter the reason for the downgrade. Subtract out the taxes and fees for the CDG-MIA segment and multiply by 0.75 and then by 2 (for 2 passengers) and you will have the reimbursement due.

#3 - Doubtful that delay/cancellation compensation applies. The parents were originally scheduled at their final ticketed destination at some scheduled time. They apprently arrived roughly 48 hours late. The first delay at GVA, an extraordinary circumstance, took them well over 4 hours. AF will likely assert and has certainly documented, given the massive delays occasioned by the weather over Western Europe, that the best efforts to find replacement crew were exhausted at some point. While it is true that finding a replacement at CDG is easier than other AF stations, in massive IRROPS, it is easy enough to run out of standby crew, to have more crew than usual timed out due to safety rules, and the need to have crew for already-scheduled flights. The parents can certainly make the claim, but I doubt that it will be paid and my best judgment is that they will not succeed in a contested proceeding (court).

As to the rebooking, it may well be that there were no other good alternatives due to the backed up number of passengers. But, given AF (+DL) operations between CDG and other US gateways with easy connections to MIA, those may have been available, although perhaps not in C/PE. But, the more important question is whether your parents asked for anything else (or whether you, on their behalf, contacted AF/DL). Carriers offer the path of least resistance and thus it is important to ask for what you want. If you wait to be handed a BP, it is not likely the best out there.

Nic33

brunos

I believe that you should base your compensation claim on the basis that they had no replacement crew at their home base.

Again, this is a disastrous combination of events. . A bit in AF defense, you should consider that the timing of US flights does not help:

On March 1, yu (parents) landed at 14:00 or so. This would be too late to organize a rerouting (assuming that space is available). The only reasonable one seems to be on DL via ATL departing 15:20 but that would probably be too late to organize (including bag transfer). Rerouting you the next day on AF90 was reasonable.

On March 2, the flight must have returned around 18:00 at CDG (2 hours out 2 hours in). With change of crew and refuelling and recatering it would probably have to takeoff past 19:00 which is still feasible for MIA airport (late evening arrival). I believe that the court find that airlines should have replacement crews at their home base (but NickB is the expert on this).

On March 3, after two-day delay, they could have rerouted you on AA63 which leaves at 11:30 and has J (assuming availability). Instead of putting you in PE two hours later. But that is linked to downgrade reimbursement

I think that you have a strong case for claiming compensation, but that is my personal view.
Regarding reimbursement, a common approach is to look at the fare component for the CDG-MIA and reimburse you 75% of that.

SK AAR

The OP is entitled to comp. for downgrade but not for delay. These are unfortunate knock-on effects of the snow situation in parts of Europe and diversion due to sick pax which are indeed extraordinary circumstances. To allege that AF should have replacement crew and be able to arrange for new departure for the same flight in evening, will get you nowhere.

Ditto

I would think that AF probably accommodated PAX on that AA flight as they operated a 340 instead of a 380, thus availability on the flight would have been very limited, if existed to begin with.

There isn't a good reason why AF shouldn't have a replacement crew available, however there are 2 things here to consider:
1. The delay at this stage was already more than 4 hours, even if we consider only the PAX of the "original" flight, not to mention OPs parents were +1day delayed due to extraordinary circumstances.
2. Given the weather situation and other IRROPS, AF might have had to use the replacement crew somewhere else, we have no way of knowing.

bodory

Wrong. AF has permanent replacement crew at their own base, including for A380. They are fully responsible for the missing 3rd pilot. OP has a strong case for the delay on this one. It would have been different if the flight originated in MIA though.

Compensation for downgrade is also due. And despite extraordinary circumstances (weather, sick passengers), it is worth asking for extra compensation for a 48+ hours delay. OP must also claim for reimbursement of all food, drink and communication spent during the delay. OP's parents being in C/J should also be put in the balance.

Nic33

Thanks again for all your contributions.

To add to the poor handling of the situation, luggage has not yet arrived although AF promised a delivery yesterday. This will be the object of another compensation claim.

Nic33

AF has proposed EUR 250 per passenger in what appears as a standard email that has probably been sent to all the flight's passengers.

I have filed a form to set forth my parents' claim, but did not get any feedback yet.