orbitmic

Indeed. I have just tried, went to 'advanced search' on the airfrance.fr website, selected travelling as a family, but on the next page you only get a choice of Mini or Classic fare with the fare rules apparently corresponding to 'regular' fares. While I am not affected myself, if AF used the transition to their new system to get rid of the special fares, that will, for many people, be the 'icing on the cake' for many people of what could prove an even more customer-hostile move than first thought.

psollitt

This entire new 'Mini fare ' sounds like a totally flawed Idea that will only push away the existing cityjet business users into the cheaper arms of easyjet .. at the " AF CDG Do' we tried ( i guess unsuccessfully.. ) about radical cost cutting messures like this .. it will only end in a degradation of the mainline product when some AF press have put spin on this project informing us of what a 'success' it has been ...

From how I read it the mini fares are not changeable , so it is not like you can choose ( after your employer buys you the cheapest fare ) to upgrade to a miles earning classic fare ...

If that was an option for a sensible €20 or what ever the difference is , then that would be a start ... but like when i see most so called 'enhancements' i just get a bad feeling in my stomach on how they will in time spread this cost cutting disease across the entire KL/AF network .

JOUY31

As shown by the slides linked by delanotre, the typological fares have not been discontinued.

CGRA

Thank you Orbitmic for the info, I tried and have the same results.
It seems to make no difference if you're traveling with or without Family

JOUY31

I have just tried booking for 2 adults and 2 children, and the booking engine does offer the flexible family fares on ORY-NCE:
- mini fare: EUR 65
- classic fare: EUR 85
- flexible family fare: EUR 90

What you are trying to use is not the family fares, but the couples fares, which were discontinued, as discussed in an earlier thread last September: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/air-f...hlight=couples, a change that took effect on October 1st.

orbitmic

Yes it worked when I tried some later date. Are the family seats capacity controlled??

San Gottardo

So what is the deal on those family fares? Same fares as before, with same degree of flexibility (change for EUR 50 I believe)? In which booking class do they book?

CGRA

it seems so , per AF web site : I"l n'existe aucune place disponible en Economy (Tarif flexible) pour votre demande, nous vous proposons un voyage en Economy (tarif le moins cher)"

IIRC Family fare was:
- NO change fees
- Refund with EURO 20 / PAX




Thank you JOUY31 for the info.
However I tried 3 dates in February and it seems that family fare are not easily available.

so if my understanding is correct :
- Before if you're a Family you were entitlent to the Family fare.
- Now : the family fare seems not to be always available
I do hope that I'm wrong

brunos

The AF website is bugging a lot, so let's hope that prices will come down once they fix it.

If one is trying to check the family fares, I suggest checking the "senior" fare, as it is easier to input and used to be similar. What is unpleasant is that I cannot find senior fares ORY-NCE-ORY below 150€ return and often 170 to 180 (needs be booked 4 days before flights, no change fee and 20€ refund fee). I only checked a few dates in February, March and May, but there used to be huge availability during the day at €100 return. That is gone and the increase in fares is drastic.
Again, let's wait a few weeks and see.

CGRA

Yes hopefully the rates will come down at the same leve than before the "mini fare"

San Gottardo

Do I summarize this discussion correctly:

AF introduces so-called MINI fares starting at at EUR 49 including fees and taxes per oneway, but they can go up to almost double that amount. They will be offered on routes from ORY and on the bases de province routes. Introduction on other European routes from CDG will happen at a later date. Fares are non-modifiable, checked luggage is EUR 15 per piece, seat allocation is automatic and can only be changed at the airport, and there is no credit of miles or segments towards travelers' Flying Blue account. Certain perks associated with FB status such as lounge use will be maintained, and one piece of luggage can be checked for free, however seat allocation works the same as for all other MINI travelers.

So much for the facts - correct?

Then a couple of distinct topics were debated.

First, on fares compared to AF fares in the past. A number of people claim that these fares are in fact the same as before, except that now they are called MINI and certain service elements need to be purchased at an additional cost; at the same time, they say, prices for modifiable and "all inclusive" fares have gone up. Others welcome the low fares initiative and claim, without quantifying the actual saving compared to previous fares, that they will win over customers that would otherwise take another airline or the train. Is there a way this argument can be solved by looking at facts? We have heard the quantified arguments by the "same price as before, less service" faction, but not the others.

Then the comparison with other airlines. Strictly comparing fares and prices paid for additional services (luggage, seat selection) it seems that AF does not match the low fares of U2, its main competitor for these routes and with comparable service. So that looks like an established fact then: purely on price, AF will not attract passengers from U2 (it may still attract them for a number of other reasons, such as more flights per day).

Third, there was a debate about whether or not "this is LCC". There were three factions: one that said that this was an LCC product in how ancilliary services need to be purchased separately; one that said that this was not LCC strategy because true LCC would involve lower costs and leaner organization rather than merely offering (supposedly?) low fares and pay-per-use extra services; and a third one arguing that this was not LCC strategy because the MINI offering only applied to a small portion of AF's overall offering and the airline overall remained a full service airline that merely had lowered its "entry" fares. All in all inconclusive and largely philosophical, although it is worthwhile noting that the perception by the media and in the wider public is one of Air France "entering the LCC space", without though saying that the company had become an LCC carrier.

Fourth, the debate about whether this was a smart strategic move. One set of opinions stressed the fact that this offering would decrease yields whilst still operating at high costs, which the airline would find difficult to slash to a level required to generate strong profitability from this move - however, these arguments were hardly quantified (although they could be). The opposite side argued that this was not really relevant because only a few seats would be offered at these low fares and that moreoever it was smarter to offer some low fares than to hand that traffic to a separate unit with a distinct low cost operating model and brand positioning (basically opposing the AFKL group strategy vs. the Lufthansa group strategy, MINI fares vs. outsourcing to Germanwings). An inconclusive debate.

Fifth, related to the above, was the discussion about brand positioning and brand erosion, with some arguing that brand erosion was bigger by transfering some traffic to a dedicated low cost unit, whilst others argued that the brand of the main airline stayed intact given that it didn't change its offering but that the brand "shock" was one with customers that suddenly had to use a low cost brand, with the ensuing risk of as a group losing passengers due to a refusal of the "LCC or nothing" choice as opposed to losing passengers that saw a creeping LCCisation of the entire offering of the main brand. Somewhat inconclusive, but logically a brand that is not used for a LCC offer (i.e. Lufthansa) cannot erode from it.

Lastly, the wider debate about strategy illustrated the extremely poor financial performance of AFKL compared to its peers over the past five years. Quite conclusive, the numbers speak their own language and tell a story of AFKL having eroded the company's value and earnings power.

Anything I forgot?

stimpy

Regarding LCC behavior in the French market, LYS said today of their 8,541,039 passengers in 2012, 22% were LCC with 4.5% growth from 2011. So it is still small in comparison to mainline traffic. In fact flights to Germany have also grown 4.5% purely due to LH expansion at LYS. I wonder what bearing these numbers may have on AF's actions.

That said Transavia will establish a base at LYS and Vueling is adding flights to LYS.

Xandrios

Just received an email from AF Greece: Mini flights to MRS now for 79 euro!

...hmm wait. That sounds familiar. Oh yes, from last year: http://twitter.com/Xandrios/status/1...766528/photo/1

Flights to MRS for 79 euro! With free checked luggage, FB miles, seat selection..

San Gottardo

And I just stumbled across something on the Lufthansa page: Paris-Berlin, Nice-Berlin, Lyon-Berlin and Geneva-Berlin all for EUR 49 - including one free bag, miles and segment credit, seat assignment including pre-allocated seats at time of booking for status passengers. I guess there are many other European destinations that are offered from Berlin at EUR 49 (...if only they had a proper airport to serve all these flights ) And no one ever said/wrote that this was an entry into the low cost segment.

Seems like AF is competing with the LCCs when it comes to its service (pay for bags etc) but competing with other legacy carriers when it comes to price. Is that smart?

brunos

LYS is not a touristic destination like MRS or NCE, so fewer LCCs. But I am very surprised that you call "small" 22% of traffic. 1.9 million pax is a huge number for the bottom line of any airline and could make the difference between loss or profit. AF losing 5%, 10% or 20% of European/domestic traffic to LCCs is very damaging and justifies taking some action.