Originally Posted by orbitmic
(Post 18564970)
Now, the rules become more transparent and whether people are in favour or against, make it clear what difference Schengen makes - If you fly within Schengen: (1) you do not need to show id unless the airline tells you they want you to for commercial reasons (but in which case they need to inform you clearly), (2) you do not need to reclear security when you have a connection if the terminal is equipped with a dedicated ex-Schengen transfer channel, which most large and medium sized airports within the area now have (3) conditions for passengers from/to non-Schengen countries do not change.
The problem, however, is that relatively few airports have set up traffic routes to allow for passengers from non-Schengen EU/EEA airports to be segregated from other non-EEA passengers and therefore de facto force the former to go through security again. The same is true in reverse in, eg., LHR (and other UK airports) which forces non-domestic EU-originating passengers to go through security again even though they should not have to simply because there is no segregation between EU and other countries in passenger traffic routes at LHR. |
Took an AF flight this morning out of CDG, no ID control at gate, but neither at security. So, theoretically, anybody could have travelled with my BP (OLCI, no checked bags)
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Good.
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Originally Posted by brunos
(Post 18591726)
Good.
Also everyone can now sell tickets on eBay. |
Tickets won't be able to be sold any more than they can be now; tickets are non-transferable, and any such tickets listed on Ebay could, as they would be right now, taken down.
I fail to see why "criminals" are of any relevance here. As long as a person is not barred from flying, or is not supposed to be in jail somewhere, are they not allowed to travel freely around the Schengen Zone (whether by air or surface) just like any other European citizen? |
They still at all times may ask you for an ID. I doubt anybody would risk having to buy a new ticket on the spot, just to save a few bucks and get a ticket off eBay :)
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This is absolutely fantastic news. One more unnecessary control gone away. FOr those who ask what the benefits are:
Other elements like "someone else can take my ticket" can be neglected. If you lose your BP you can - with your ID - prove that you are the person supposed to travel and get a new BP, this way also uncovering the person who took your place/seat. Also "reselling of tickets" seems not to be an issue. There are other airlines that do not require ID check when boarding, they do not have that problem. And the "criminals" argument lacks any foundation and is, excuse my French, silly. If a criminal that is not supposed to fly uses his real name he will be identified by computers who match his name against a no fly list. If he uses a false name then he gets through anyway. If need be he could also fake an ID. Also, the people checking the ID - usually airline-own or airline-paid staff - cannot do anything. They only check name on BP vs name on ID. Without having a list who is a criminal or not anyone gets through. And should they by chance find a notorious criminal without looking him up in a database - e.g. a pax presenting ticket and ID on the name of Osama Bin Laden - then there's not a lot they can do. They have no rights to arrest that person for instance. Thus, as I have been arguing since years, these controls are silly, unnecessary and a hassle for no real benefit. Glad to see common sense has finally taken over. Also, just wanted to confirm earlier posts who make a difference between no need to show ID at country borders within Schengen (because there are no more fix border posts) and the need to show an ID to show who you are. The border controls were to check not only who you are but whether your papers allowed you to enter the other country. The ID checks at boarding are to check whether you are the person whose name is written on the BP. Airport security is yet another thing: the entire EU as well as non EU countries that are part of Schengen (e.g. Norway, Switzerland) as well as in some cases the USA are considered "clean", and transfers between these countries can happen without further security control. But that has NOTHING to do with ID checks or border control. In theory one could transfer in GVA from a flight from London to a flight to ROme without security check. But there would be a border control because GVA would be the entry point into the Schengen area. As a matter of fact the majority of European hub airports are laid out in a way that allows for transfers between clean countries without further security checks: CPH - yes all German airports with the exception of Berlin - yes all Swiss airports - yes all Austrian airports - yes Madrid - yes Barcelona - yes Lisboa - yes Milan - I think so Prague - yes Brussels - yes AMS - only between Schengen flights AFAIK Some terminals at CDG (e.g. 2D, 2F - but what about 2E e.g. for a flight arriving from the UK?) London LHR T5 Notable exceptions: London LHR other terminals and between terminals Paris CDG T1 - the geniuses at ADP laid the airport out in a way that does not make it possible with the exception of transfers within Satellite 7 AMS - for transfers from clean countries to non-Schengen countries, but only as long as there is no centralized security control which I understand will happen soon |
End of ID/BP cross-check at boarding in France for AF flights, starting May 15th
What is the chance we'll see autogates like Lufthansa?
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Originally Posted by San Gottardo
(Post 18595079)
And the "criminals" argument lacks any foundation and is, excuse my French, silly.
My English is not the best, but I try my best so you maybe can understand me: Look: If someone does a crime and then tries to leave the country by plane, a simple ID-Check would stop the criminal from flying away because the Name of the passenger would be on a ban-list which also can be updatet automaticly. This can all done by autogates. Without an ID-Check its only easier for criminals to travel, because now they can buy tickets with a fantasy name. "less hassle when boarding and faster boarding" It only takes a sec to show your ID. You have to show you BP anyway. In Germany the ID has a chip in it (and I think in France too), so a computer can do the ID check. In Germany in every Supermarket you have to show your ID if you look young and want to buy alc. or cigaretts. Even if your are on a train with a month-card you have to show your ID. So it should be no real problem to show your ID on an Airport. Wouldnt it be nicer, if you can travel only with your ID-card and without a BP! :confused: |
Originally Posted by Kölner
(Post 18595669)
Look: If someone does a crime and then tries to leave the country by plane, a simple ID-Check would stop the criminal from flying away because the Name of the passenger would be on a ban-list which also can be updatet automaticly.
You are absolutely right that there are many occasions in life when one is asked to show id, and many others when one has to go through security. Everything is possible in theory. In some countries you have to pass security to enter bus or train stations or even shopping malls, which undoubtedly lowers the likeliness of terrorist attacks in these places, in others, policemen can ask random passer by's on the street to show their id which undoubtedly results in some 'wanted' people being spotted and arrested or illegal immigrants being found, in others you also need to show id when you leave individual cities which presumably prevent wanted people from disappearing and becoming much harder to find. There is no limit to what can be proposed in the name of security, but ultimately, public forces need to arbitrate based on a number of criteria including efficiency, marginal benefits of each additional measure, the right of people to live as normal and undisrupted a life as possible, cost, etc. My personal perception is that removing this particular control is an improvement and very much goes in the right direction. I am yet to hear many people who think that US airports are dangerously insecure yet both security and id checks for domestic flights are much laxer than what we have in Europe. |
Originally Posted by Kölner
(Post 18595669)
No, it's not silly.
My English is not the best, but I try my best so you maybe can understand me: Look: If someone does a crime and then tries to leave the country by plane, a simple ID-Check would stop the criminal from flying away because the Name of the passenger would be on a ban-list which also can be updatet automaticly. This can all done by autogates. Without an ID-Check its only easier for criminals to travel, because now they can buy tickets with a fantasy name. Let's work logic for the criminals and see which ones you can really capture with that medthod. Let's assume someone has committed a crime and has not already fled the country before being identified and all databases updated (which already eliminates many criminals).
What this logic shows is that the way to capture criminals is not to have their ID checked against their boarding pass by people who have no way of telling who is a criminal and even if they could tell would be powerless to act. Criminals must be identified, hunted and detained by institutions and people that have the skills and rights to do so. Airlines neither have the skills nor the right to do that. Conclusion: checking IDs at boarding is senseless.
Originally Posted by Kölner
(Post 18595669)
"less hassle when boarding and faster boarding"
It only takes a sec to show your ID.
Originally Posted by Kölner
(Post 18595669)
You have to show you BP anyway.
Originally Posted by Kölner
(Post 18595669)
In Germany the ID has a chip in it (and I think in France too), so a computer can do the ID check.
Originally Posted by Kölner
(Post 18595669)
In Germany in every Supermarket you have to show your ID if you look young and want to buy alc. or cigaretts.
Originally Posted by Kölner
(Post 18595669)
Even if your are on a train with a month-card you have to show your ID.
Originally Posted by Kölner
(Post 18595669)
So it should be no real problem to show your ID on an Airport.
Originally Posted by Kölner
(Post 18595669)
Wouldnt it be nicer, if you can travel only with your ID-card and without a BP! :confused:
EDIT: just read orbitmics's post. Absolutely concur with what he writes. |
Originally Posted by Kölner
(Post 18595669)
Look: If someone does a crime and then tries to leave the country by plane, a simple ID-Check would stop the criminal from flying away because the Name of the passenger would be on a ban-list which also can be updatet automaticly. This can all done by autogates.
Without an ID-Check its only easier for criminals to travel, because now they can buy tickets with a fantasy name. Air France staff are not, and should never be, the last (or only?) line of defence in apprehending fleeing criminals. To suggest that boarding ID checks are a vital security feature, and should be retained for their usefulness in detaining fleeing criminals, is either naive or laughable. As suggested above, if the criminal is "fleeing" to another Schengen jurisdiction (which isn't really fleeing at all) then they could just board a train, where ID is never required, or live up to their reputation by stealing a car and driving over a national border. If they do try to leave Schengen, well they will have to submit themselves to passport control (I believe this to be true at most exit ports, anyway). But the hardened criminal will always be able to slip away unnoticed - whether by land crossing, or piloting a small craft (whether by air or by sea) to an unpoliced entry point in an non-EU country, from where they can make good their escape, foiling Air France and Interpol in the process!!!! |
Originally Posted by JOUY31
(Post 18550007)
Loosely translated:
effective May 15th, cross-check of boarding pass and ID documents when boarding the plane will be discontinued at French airports, for all AF operated flights, including those operated for Air France by Regional, Brit Air, Cityjet and Airlinair. |
Originally Posted by San Gottardo
(Post 18598510)
EDIT: just read orbitmics's post. Absolutely concur with what he writes.
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Originally Posted by Kölner
(Post 18592028)
I don't think this is good. For our security this is a real bay news if now every criminal can fly with Air France if there are no ID-Checks at all.:td:
Also everyone can now sell tickets on eBay. Lufthansa has been doing this for ages. Same as AirBerlin. And others too... I think the risk of people buying their tickets on eBay is relatively low. Not only because you can't trust your seller to only sell his ticket once... The beauty of eTix. |
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