irishguy28

Fine, then. You may not see it as a big change in the rules of Flying Blue - but AF dropping off the list of airlines for which level miles were always guaranteed (and, which therefore, count as qualifying sectors, and as flights that extend the lifetime of your Award Miles balance) no matter what kind of ticket you had, is pretty big news in my book.

AF now falls below KL, DL and AZ, amongst others, in that one in future will have to pay attention to the fare class on AF in case sectors/mileage extending is important, so that AF now more closely resembles a mere partner airline, rather than an actual native FB airline, in that respect.

And it's 187, not 178, miles!!! (I see you're not familiar with the number, so you won't be affected by this change!!!).

stimpy

Actually I see it as zero change to FB since in fact nothing has been changed. And you may not be aware of it, but unions are deeply concerned with all aspects of FB. As well as every single other operating factor of AF.

NickB

You mean AF may fall at some future point (rather than now falls), as nothing is officially confirmed for now.

If AF was going to go down that route, I would be extremely surprised if the lower fares on KL would not follow suit too.

I have to say, though, that from what I recollect from the CDG DO, the FB people were quite insistent on the "all (AFKL revenue) fares earn miles" being a key aspect of FB. It cannot be ruled out that FB might move away from it but it would be a very significant change from their perspective.

Zembla

Also you would not be affected by this (unconfirmed) change as long as you have the choice of choosing the cheaper economy minus, or the unchanged N class. I can however understand your concerns very well if you don't have that choice.

There were quite a few years where I re-qualified by segment. And actually, after 4 years of relative easy re-qualifying this year may be one of them again and it looks even like it is going to be a close one. I always book N when travelling short haul for private reasons which is at least once a month. So whaterver the number of miles, the actual shape and form of this (unconfirmed) change is also of interest to me.

brunos

The April's Fool changes and the French AMEX changes have made it much more difficult to qualify on miles while leaving the segment qualification unchanged. Earning 25% on discounted Y longhaul means that you must shuttle to US and Asia to qualify for Plat. Even discounted Z biz at 125% was a big drawback.
Now they attack those qualifying on segments. In a way it is "fair", but sad. They are making elite+ a more restrictive club, but without the benefits accrued in other programs.
Add that opup are getting less frequent with the paid upgrade and that O awards are apparently much less available...

orbitmic

Like others, I would still take what was written about in the linked article with a biggish pinch of salt until confirmed. IF it were confirmed, however, I do fear that the assumption you make in your last few posts about the introduction of this new lower fare leaving the current offerings unchange is likely to be over-optimistic.

If AF try to use the new 'eco minus' class to go head to head with Easyjet and the likes (I'm not even talking about Ryanair), then as NickB correctly points out, they simply don't have the means to lower their costs to anything remotely close to the same level and yet they would probably have to provide cheap enough initial fares to attract the attention of the travellers segments that they are trying to regain. This means that they would do what all airlines have done in recent past when they have tried this type of operation (NZ on trans-tasman, LY with their low cost mini cabin inside attempt, etc) - they will manage to get cheap enough lowest fares in part thanks to the small savings in their running costs but partly by changing the rest of their fare structure and subsidising the lowest fares by readjusting the 'middle range'. In practice, it is likely that the new 'eco minus' would thus consist of both one or two new classes and the integration of some of the cheapest existing classes which would join the no-service category (think G, X, O, V, R, and probably N, maybe even E). My guess is that effectively, AF would try and sell this as an improvement, perhaps by making the cheapest earning fares earn 50% miles.

And as NickB says, I'm pretty certain that if they introduced that change, you could expect a number of fares on other airlines to become non-qualifying.

But again, that's only the theory - this 0% on some AF classes announcement is clearly a 'serious' rumour, but still only a rumour. Even AF and the unions are still negotiating and we should wait till we hear more before starting to figure out how to deal with it. However, if it is confirmed, I too will think of it as a very sad piece of news for FB and have no doubt it will come with its trail of bad repercussions.

stimpy

One of the clues that we should take from the Do, is that De Juniac said that Delta had proven a way for mainline carriers to compete with LCC's. So if you look at how DL competes against Southwest, Adtran and JetBlue you may see some examples how AF will take on Euro LCC's.

irishguy28

What was Delta's strategy to counter the LCCs, stimpy?

orbitmic

Good question. It doesn't strike me as so different from other US airlines anyway. Fairly bare service in economy: no free checked luggage, no food, soft drink (one glass on most flights, that's it) and peanuts, no free papers etc, try to upsell using films and internet for a fee.

First class: nicer seats and free upgrades for elite pax subject to availability, rubbish food on short flights, good on longer ones. No access to lounges for elites/first class pax (except business on transcontinental) on domestic flights

stimpy

Beats me. I live in Europe and don't pay much attention to today's US market. I suspect it has more to do with routes and airplanes than FFP's though.

johan rebel

I earn FB miles solely by flying shorthaul at the lowest available fare. 187 miles per flight is so paltry that I don't even bother to check whether flights have posted. I take a look at my account maybe once or twice a year. I might end up with sufficient miles for a redemption in due course, but a worthwhile one? Don't think so.

I am of course LTPE, so need not worry about elite status.




Johan

NickB

I am not sure that comparisons with the US market are very enlightening. The European and domestic US markets are very different.

Moreover, LCCs in the US and in Europe are also rather different. US LCCs are not hugely different from network carriers from a passenger perspective: they sell multi-segment tickets, they have some kind of FFP; they charge for food but then so do network carriers. In Europe, OTOH, LCCs are strictly point-to-point, do not have FFPs (at least the typical LCCs like Ryanair, Easyjet or Wizzair; the hybrid carriers like Air Berlin or Aer Lingus are a little different on that front).

ANstar

Hopefully we will also see AFKL drop the stupid return pricing policy and move to one way pricing in Europe too like BA.

Richelieu

Indeed. 2009 April's Fool day introduced changes that can be summarized like this :

• (much) reduced earn/burn ratio for most cheap Eco fares
• reduced earn/burn ratio for discounted (but flexible enough) Affaires
• slightly reduced earn/burn ratio in full fare Affaires (little gain over D or I in term of flexibility)
• No change in this department for F flights.

These changes (among others) were described as increased generosity toward the higher fare, and done according to what their customers said they want. I am pretty sure their high yield customers didn't want to have everyone else's benefits gutted so their own benefits would look attractive in comparison. My opinion was that they just asked for more recognition of their (perceived?) high yield, so an _increase_ in benefits, not a slight decrease among a berezina.

When we look at the current communication, we get:

The wording is eerily similar.

It sounds like union spin. On the other hand, nobody can find a quote anywhere from AF 2009 CEO accurately describing the changes made at this time. All we had was management spin. So far, we've heard two versions :

A)

* Increased generosity of FB in mainline
* Better service in mainline AF
* All-inclusive, cheaper economy

B)

* Not a lot of change
* Underwhelming plan for short/medium-haul
* New Eco class without free checked luggage, assigned seating nor miles

Which one will accurately describe the outcome? Will reality be somewhere in-between? Who knows, but from the past history I give AF communication around the same level of trust I give to tarot reading. I hope they'll genuinely improve things, and I look forward.to a few key points... But I'll trust them when I see them (AF business on par with SQ business being one, and I'll even pinch myself onboard to be sure if I see it).

It might at some point. Nothing is acted so far. Though I can totally see why AF don't want to incur the cost of giving lounge access (fwiw) to a customer who get 60 segments only on cheap, Easyjet-like fares. If they trim down all the costs to lower the ticket prices, the marginal cost of having someone sitting in a lounge is one of the few area where they can cut.

Having a plane with a mix of pax with assigned and unassigned seating would be a larger departure than losing 187 miles on the cheapest fares...

The bloomberg article (and other news) mention a new class, not a new fare class. An Economy Minus, or Third Class service, would need to be easily recognized and bookable. Frankly, I don't see the customer having to look at the fare bucket to know if he'll get miles. AF will have to communicate it better than that if it's linked to the other improvements, such as reduced risk of losing luggage (since you can no longer check it), obesity-management assistance (no meal) and boarding without the hassle of finding your seat with its byzantine numbering (since it'll be a free-for-all zoo boarding ). They'll need to have a dedicated class, not just having these changes linked to an obscure thing such as a fare class. Don't forget that we were also told that the offering would be clearer for the easily-confused customer. Not knowing if you can check bags would be for most leisure, price-conscious travelers a much bigger hassle than milage accrual.

brunos

The posts above are quite enlightening.
I agree that we should take the linked rumor with caution, but it seems so logical that I would expect it to be true.
AF wants to be able to offer cheaper fares in the domestic/European network. Given the current situation, all possible means will be used as it is vital to AF survival.
Removing the drink service will probably save a couple of euros per segment. Removing free newspapers will save an additional euro (or less). Charging a fee per luggage will save a few euros (I mean that they will be able to quote a lower fare w/o luggage). If AF internal pricing is 1cent per FB mile, removing the 187 miles will save close to two euros. It is hard to price, but reducing the number of elite+ who qualify on segments will bring some lounge/miles saving. So they will be able to quote somewhat lower fares, closer to LCCs.
I agree with Orbitmic that the usual "paying pigs" will subsidize the lowest fares.

Now the big question is whether AF will introduce two sub-classes in its plane, eco and eco-. They might try to do it in the short run as a transition, with the front of the plane getting drink service. But I doubt that it is manageable and will be too complicated for the AF shuttle service. So I guess that the planes will soon be monoclass in terms of drink service, while the differentiation between the fare buckets will be on flexibility of the fare, free luggage, miles earned. The challenge will be to introduce a pay for food/drink as it is a nice service of Easyjet.
The patio lounge has already disappeared in ORY Hall 1. It will probably disappear elsewhere on the domestic network.
For old-timer, this sounds like Air Inter.