[RUMOUR] 737s to be sent to rouge, 32xs to be moved from rouge to mainline
Dec 9, 2023, 6:45 pm
#1
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[RUMOUR] 737s to be sent to rouge, 32xs to be moved from rouge to mainline
just heard some more gossip 737 will ALL be sent to Rouge and the existing Rouge planes go back to mailnline. Seriously how does this make any sense, the 319 are ancient why would they be fitted back to Mainline?
Lets hope its gossip.
Lets hope its gossip.
Dec 9, 2023, 6:52 pm
#2
Join Date: Mar 2016
Programs: AC SE
Posts: 1,506
I heard that from a Rouge pilot a while back (about the 737s). So it was company gossip at one time too.
Dec 9, 2023, 11:08 pm
#3
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I would prefer a refurbished cabin a32x over a max, period. I don't care how old the frame is, I care about the passenger comfort.
Dec 10, 2023, 12:23 am
#4
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: YVR
Posts: 262
But honestly, my opinion, just transfer the A321/A320s back to mainline, don't transfer the 737s to Rouge, and kill the Rouge brand.
Dec 10, 2023, 9:27 am
#5
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: YOW
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My armchair CEO opinion:
Pros:
Typical Rouge routes to sun destinations are 3-5 hrs long where MAX's fuel saving can become apparent.
Operate a single type vs 3 subtypes in various size can simplify fleet planning though not optimal. (Transat's A332 and A333 had very similar capacity for a long time for this reason)
Rouge can take over many trans-con flying with low premium demand/ high leisure demand at a slightly lower cost.
Rouge can return to the transatlantic leisure market with the MAX
Cons:
The 38M fleet is already flying a lot of trans-con routes which is long enough that the fuel saving is significant and ideal fit for this type. Using the XLR with lie flats seat will not be as economical.
Rouge's cost saving comes from higher density and lower cabin crew cost but the mainline has already caught up to Rouge and retraining the entire Rouge Cabin crew to MAX cost money.
Repainting 80 planes and refitting them also cost a lot of money.
Having one type and one size is suboptimal. (Can't sub in an A319 for an A321 when the demand is high)
Conclusion, it doesn't make any practical sense to make such dramatic shuffle.
They might as well just absorb Rouge back into the mainline. It's not like they haven't been flying mainline routes with the Rouge fleet.
Pros:
Typical Rouge routes to sun destinations are 3-5 hrs long where MAX's fuel saving can become apparent.
Operate a single type vs 3 subtypes in various size can simplify fleet planning though not optimal. (Transat's A332 and A333 had very similar capacity for a long time for this reason)
Rouge can take over many trans-con flying with low premium demand/ high leisure demand at a slightly lower cost.
Rouge can return to the transatlantic leisure market with the MAX
Cons:
The 38M fleet is already flying a lot of trans-con routes which is long enough that the fuel saving is significant and ideal fit for this type. Using the XLR with lie flats seat will not be as economical.
Rouge's cost saving comes from higher density and lower cabin crew cost but the mainline has already caught up to Rouge and retraining the entire Rouge Cabin crew to MAX cost money.
Repainting 80 planes and refitting them also cost a lot of money.
Having one type and one size is suboptimal. (Can't sub in an A319 for an A321 when the demand is high)
Conclusion, it doesn't make any practical sense to make such dramatic shuffle.
They might as well just absorb Rouge back into the mainline. It's not like they haven't been flying mainline routes with the Rouge fleet.
Dec 10, 2023, 9:50 am
#6
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It would have to be a pretty remarkable cost-benefit analysis to justify repainting 80 aircraft, not to mention whatever contract wrangling would be necessary to move several hundred pilots from mainline to Rouge.
I'd be just as happy to collect all unsubstantiated rumours in a single "AC Spilled Tea" thread and leave them there, before we end up with bloggers breathlessly reporting this as fact.
I'd be just as happy to collect all unsubstantiated rumours in a single "AC Spilled Tea" thread and leave them there, before we end up with bloggers breathlessly reporting this as fact.
Dec 10, 2023, 12:46 pm
#8
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The "fit" doesn't make sense to me.
The 321LRs clearly will be mainline equipment and there are still plenty of other 319/320/321 in mainline with the 321s looking like they are here for a while. So having the rest of your 320 family in the same fleet makes sense for type commonality. Maintaining a single type over at Rouge also makes sense. But that's where the sense ends.
In theory you could do a straight swap of 40 738s for 5 320s, 17 321s and 18 319s. But the real cost lies not in repainting or refitting, but rather in type rating all of the affected pilots, because you can't intermingle employees from different collective agreements. While you could certainly bring all the Rouge pilots into the AC agreement you can't send the mainline pilots to Rouge without tearing up the Rouge collective agreement. (And if you tear up the Rouge pilots' agreement then you no longer have a rationale to keep the brand, which is why getting rid of Rouge is equally a non-starter).
The 321LRs clearly will be mainline equipment and there are still plenty of other 319/320/321 in mainline with the 321s looking like they are here for a while. So having the rest of your 320 family in the same fleet makes sense for type commonality. Maintaining a single type over at Rouge also makes sense. But that's where the sense ends.
In theory you could do a straight swap of 40 738s for 5 320s, 17 321s and 18 319s. But the real cost lies not in repainting or refitting, but rather in type rating all of the affected pilots, because you can't intermingle employees from different collective agreements. While you could certainly bring all the Rouge pilots into the AC agreement you can't send the mainline pilots to Rouge without tearing up the Rouge collective agreement. (And if you tear up the Rouge pilots' agreement then you no longer have a rationale to keep the brand, which is why getting rid of Rouge is equally a non-starter).
Dec 10, 2023, 1:33 pm
#9
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The "fit" doesn't make sense to me.
The 321LRs clearly will be mainline equipment and there are still plenty of other 319/320/321 in mainline with the 321s looking like they are here for a while. So having the rest of your 320 family in the same fleet makes sense for type commonality. Maintaining a single type over at Rouge also makes sense. But that's where the sense ends.
In theory you could do a straight swap of 40 738s for 5 320s, 17 321s and 18 319s. But the real cost lies not in repainting or refitting, but rather in type rating all of the affected pilots, because you can't intermingle employees from different collective agreements. While you could certainly bring all the Rouge pilots into the AC agreement you can't send the mainline pilots to Rouge without tearing up the Rouge collective agreement. (And if you tear up the Rouge pilots' agreement then you no longer have a rationale to keep the brand, which is why getting rid of Rouge is equally a non-starter).
The 321LRs clearly will be mainline equipment and there are still plenty of other 319/320/321 in mainline with the 321s looking like they are here for a while. So having the rest of your 320 family in the same fleet makes sense for type commonality. Maintaining a single type over at Rouge also makes sense. But that's where the sense ends.
In theory you could do a straight swap of 40 738s for 5 320s, 17 321s and 18 319s. But the real cost lies not in repainting or refitting, but rather in type rating all of the affected pilots, because you can't intermingle employees from different collective agreements. While you could certainly bring all the Rouge pilots into the AC agreement you can't send the mainline pilots to Rouge without tearing up the Rouge collective agreement. (And if you tear up the Rouge pilots' agreement then you no longer have a rationale to keep the brand, which is why getting rid of Rouge is equally a non-starter).
BTW, this topic, together with the cabin change, might point to AC wanting to restart Rouge long haul destinations using Maxes? Replacing the 767s.
Dec 10, 2023, 3:17 pm
#10
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I also believe the pilots have been the same for some time, with those with the A3xx type rating able to move between rouge and mainline ops easily.
Dec 10, 2023, 4:02 pm
#11
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Dec 10, 2023, 4:21 pm
#13
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Dec 10, 2023, 6:28 pm
#14
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The older the plane, the more potential for mechanicals. I like the Max as long as I get a preferred seat!
Dec 11, 2023, 3:39 am
#15
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The "fit" doesn't make sense to me.
The 321LRs clearly will be mainline equipment and there are still plenty of other 319/320/321 in mainline with the 321s looking like they are here for a while. So having the rest of your 320 family in the same fleet makes sense for type commonality. Maintaining a single type over at Rouge also makes sense. But that's where the sense ends.
In theory you could do a straight swap of 40 738s for 5 320s, 17 321s and 18 319s. But the real cost lies not in repainting or refitting, but rather in type rating all of the affected pilots, because you can't intermingle employees from different collective agreements. While you could certainly bring all the Rouge pilots into the AC agreement you can't send the mainline pilots to Rouge without tearing up the Rouge collective agreement. (And if you tear up the Rouge pilots' agreement then you no longer have a rationale to keep the brand, which is why getting rid of Rouge is equally a non-starter).
The 321LRs clearly will be mainline equipment and there are still plenty of other 319/320/321 in mainline with the 321s looking like they are here for a while. So having the rest of your 320 family in the same fleet makes sense for type commonality. Maintaining a single type over at Rouge also makes sense. But that's where the sense ends.
In theory you could do a straight swap of 40 738s for 5 320s, 17 321s and 18 319s. But the real cost lies not in repainting or refitting, but rather in type rating all of the affected pilots, because you can't intermingle employees from different collective agreements. While you could certainly bring all the Rouge pilots into the AC agreement you can't send the mainline pilots to Rouge without tearing up the Rouge collective agreement. (And if you tear up the Rouge pilots' agreement then you no longer have a rationale to keep the brand, which is why getting rid of Rouge is equally a non-starter).
Rouge pilot positions are just a bid position like any other fleet type and pilots can move back and forth a few times per year. The fly in the ointment is that Rouge is on a separate OC and uses a different training system so crew and aircraft are not interchangeable on a daily basis.