Seat assignment mess due to equipment swap on rouge 321
Jul 4, 2022, 2:45 pm
#31
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If I go to the dry cleaners and I give a claim ticket to pick up an Armani suit and the guy next to me hands over a claim ticket to pick up a t-shirt, and if the dry cleaner gets the tickets mixed up and gives us each the wrong item, I'm not bullying the other customer by pointing out to the dry cleaner that they mixed up the claim tickets. I'm correcting their error. This is what's going on here -- the OP is pointing out AC's obvious error, not bullying other customers who had got a windfall of an exit row seat despite having checked into a regular seat.
Jul 4, 2022, 3:00 pm
#32
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Jul 4, 2022, 3:23 pm
#33
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I'd argue it's far more likely the FAs simply didn't feel like delaying a hundred people's flight further to deal with entitled passengers who decided being angry means the rules apply to everyone but them.
The example you give is not at all the same as the one the OP describes. Would you really suck it up and fly TATL, say, if you got on the aircraft and your lie flat was renumbered so it was an economy seat and someone’s economy seat was numbered as a lie flat? In the OP’s case the seat type paid for was numbered differently: since it still exists (as opposed to your example where the actual seat doesn’t exist in the 787 downgrade) it is reasonable to try to sort it out.
The example absolutely applies. A passenger who decided they were 'morally' entitled to getting what they wanted, and chose to physically plant themselves on their desired real estate, choosing to screw anyone else who might have equal right to the seat, and forcing the FAs to choose whether it's worth delaying the flight to remove them to their assigned seats.
I don't. I've heard nothing here that convinces me OP isn't whitewashing rude, selfish behaviour simply because the people they screwed over chose not to make a bigger fight about it.
Last edited by YOWgary; Jul 4, 2022 at 3:28 pm
Jul 4, 2022, 3:37 pm
#34
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 122
Forgetting this specific situation, I think it’s kind of crappy that so many people think a refund of the seat selection / exit seat fee is an acceptable result.
People absolutely make flying decisions around the types of seats they can get. The airlines have decided that they can charge for every little thing and I think that should also make them responsible for honouring the stuff they’re selling.
Flying 15 years ago I think it’s pretty reasonable to say that you were buying a flight from point A to point B in a given service level and as long as you were given that you got what you were owed. But with everything being sold separately these days I think airlines owe a duty to honour the extras they’re selling. And just issuing a refund doesn’t seem good enough to me.
Obviously unexpected stuff happens and sometimes airlines can’t honour what they promised - but it should cost them something to make it right to people rather than just refunding the initial price paid. It’s also a good incentive for airlines to fix problems like this where their system doesn’t seem to know the exact plane being flown.
“A passenger who decided they were 'morally' entitled to getting what they wanted, and chose to physically plant themselves on their desired real estate, choosing to screw anyone else who might have equal right to the seat,”
If an airline sells sitting in exit seats as a thing, aren’t the people that bought an exit seat the ones entitled to it?
Or is your perspective that the airline sold the right to pick a seat number and made no guarantees about what that seat would be like (aside from economy class)?
People absolutely make flying decisions around the types of seats they can get. The airlines have decided that they can charge for every little thing and I think that should also make them responsible for honouring the stuff they’re selling.
Flying 15 years ago I think it’s pretty reasonable to say that you were buying a flight from point A to point B in a given service level and as long as you were given that you got what you were owed. But with everything being sold separately these days I think airlines owe a duty to honour the extras they’re selling. And just issuing a refund doesn’t seem good enough to me.
Obviously unexpected stuff happens and sometimes airlines can’t honour what they promised - but it should cost them something to make it right to people rather than just refunding the initial price paid. It’s also a good incentive for airlines to fix problems like this where their system doesn’t seem to know the exact plane being flown.
“A passenger who decided they were 'morally' entitled to getting what they wanted, and chose to physically plant themselves on their desired real estate, choosing to screw anyone else who might have equal right to the seat,”
If an airline sells sitting in exit seats as a thing, aren’t the people that bought an exit seat the ones entitled to it?
Or is your perspective that the airline sold the right to pick a seat number and made no guarantees about what that seat would be like (aside from economy class)?
Last edited by Adam Smith; Jul 4, 2022 at 4:21 pm Reason: Merge consecutive posts by same user
Jul 4, 2022, 3:42 pm
#35
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I think (hope?) that at the very least we can agree that AC is the party that screwed up here by selling an exit row seat to a passenger and (initially) not delivering on it. I am far from an AC apologist, but in this instance I think AC recovered nicely from the error in that everybody got what they were expecting (ie. at check-in) in the end. I just don't understand why everybody is making the OP out to be villain when AC was clearly in the wrong. Calling him/her a bully is really harsh and uncalled for in my mind, as from their account they acted calmly and professionally and didn't take it out on the other passengers. If you pay for a service that isn't delivered you shouldn't just shut up and hide under your seat -- you need to voice your concerns or you will never get what you deserve in life. What part of their account makes them sound "entitled" or "angry"? If anything they sounded anything but. They brought the issue to the attention of the flight attendants and it was resolved to everybody's satisfaction. What is the problem here? I've flown enough over lots and lots of years (I've held elite status on 4 different airlines on 2 continents pretty much continuously since the 90s) and have seen lots of misbehaviour on the part of both passengers and flight attendants, but from where I sit this looks like a success story for people both in front and behind of the galley curtain. AC screwed up and they made it right. If you told me that the OP had made a huge scene or had been menacing or physical, no question I'd take the other side, but I see no evidence of that.
Jul 4, 2022, 3:43 pm
#36
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“A passenger who decided they were 'morally' entitled to getting what they wanted, and chose to physically plant themselves on their desired real estate, choosing to screw anyone else who might have equal right to the seat,”
If an airline sells sitting in exit seats as a thing, aren’t the people that bought an exit seat the ones entitled to it?
Or is your perspective that the airline sold the right to pick a seat number and made no guarantees about what that seat would be like (aside from economy class)?
If an airline sells sitting in exit seats as a thing, aren’t the people that bought an exit seat the ones entitled to it?
Or is your perspective that the airline sold the right to pick a seat number and made no guarantees about what that seat would be like (aside from economy class)?
Are you more entitled to it than I am? I paid for an exit row, and have a boarding pass with that seat assignment. You paid for an exit row, and do not have a boarding pass with that seat assignment.
You have no idea whether the people now with the seat assignments paid for it. Or if someone else paid for it on their behalf without telling them.
Jul 4, 2022, 3:46 pm
#37
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OP paid for an exit row seat. It's not his problem that Air Canada didn't provide the seat he paid for, it's their problem to provide the seat he paid for. And no, he did not pay for "18A", he paid for an exit row seat. The seat pitch on normal Rouge a321 seats is 29 in, but the seat pitch on the exit row seats is 34 in. That is a clear material difference and if I had paid extra to ensure I had extra seat pitch for FLL-YUL, which is over three hours, then I would press the matter with the Flight Attendant.
However, I would not have just sat in the exit row seat and waited for a confrontation. I would have proactively gone back to the front of the plane to address the issue with cabin crew before boarding got crowded any further. I don't think OP handled this in the optimal way, and the regulations may say he was only "entitled" to a refund of the seat reservation fee, but I don't think pressing the issue with cabin crew is out of line. It's a medium-haul flight on a budget carrier and the difference between 34in and 29in is tangible.
Nonetheless, I hope it's clear that while it's alright to be firm in your request to cabin crew, always be POLITE.
However, I would not have just sat in the exit row seat and waited for a confrontation. I would have proactively gone back to the front of the plane to address the issue with cabin crew before boarding got crowded any further. I don't think OP handled this in the optimal way, and the regulations may say he was only "entitled" to a refund of the seat reservation fee, but I don't think pressing the issue with cabin crew is out of line. It's a medium-haul flight on a budget carrier and the difference between 34in and 29in is tangible.
Nonetheless, I hope it's clear that while it's alright to be firm in your request to cabin crew, always be POLITE.
Jul 4, 2022, 3:50 pm
#38
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So what happens if you pay for an exit row, and then at check-in I notice an exit row seat is available (due to an equipment change, and you kept your seat number), and I buy the now-available exit row.
Are you more entitled to it than I am? I paid for an exit row, and have a boarding pass with that seat assignment. You paid for an exit row, and do not have a boarding pass with that seat assignment.
You have no idea whether the people now with the seat assignments paid for it. Or if someone else paid for it on their behalf without telling them.
Are you more entitled to it than I am? I paid for an exit row, and have a boarding pass with that seat assignment. You paid for an exit row, and do not have a boarding pass with that seat assignment.
You have no idea whether the people now with the seat assignments paid for it. Or if someone else paid for it on their behalf without telling them.
If AC charges a premium for exit seats over regular seat assignments, it clearly believes that they hold value above and beyond a regular seat. If they charge that premium they should deliver the promised service/product.
Jul 4, 2022, 4:08 pm
#39
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There’s no doubt that preferred seats are sold at a premium because they’re preferable to regular seats. There’s also no doubt that this flight experienced yet another AC IT fail which turned a routine airline operations issue (a simple aircraft swap) into a poor customer experience (“hmmmmm this isn’t the seat I paid for”).
While both those statements may simultaneously be true, the answer is not “I’m going to sit where I want despite what my boarding pass says.”
Is a simple refund sufficient for the discomfort and hassle associated with sitting in a non-preferred seat on a 3-hour rouge flight? No, I don’t think so. Which is precisely why there’s an opportunity to seek further compensation after the fact.
TL;DR — sit in your own assigned seat while trying to resolve the situation amicably in real time, otherwise sit in your assigned seat and seek appropriate compensation afterwards.
While both those statements may simultaneously be true, the answer is not “I’m going to sit where I want despite what my boarding pass says.”
Is a simple refund sufficient for the discomfort and hassle associated with sitting in a non-preferred seat on a 3-hour rouge flight? No, I don’t think so. Which is precisely why there’s an opportunity to seek further compensation after the fact.
TL;DR — sit in your own assigned seat while trying to resolve the situation amicably in real time, otherwise sit in your assigned seat and seek appropriate compensation afterwards.
Jul 4, 2022, 4:18 pm
#40
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On Thursday I flew RV1605 FLL-YUL. I had heard some pretty bad things on here, so I didn't have high hopes. I am an EP on AA, but the flght times weren't good for us, so I decided to give RV a try. I am also *G, via UA. I paid for exit row seats (18E, 18F), as the seat pitch in Y is unbelievable at 29".
We arrived at FLL and had to go to the ticket counter to get our BP. As expected, the TA noted our exit row seats and made sure we were okay with our responsibilities. So far, so good.
We boarded on time, but immediately noticed a problem. Row 18 was not an exit row. Row 17 was. Obviously an equipment change. The people boarding right in front of us had the same issue. But even more of an issue for them, because one of them was 6'5" (196 cm). We collectively decided to sit in row 17 while we waited for things to get sorted out (I mean, the tall guy had no choice). It wasn't long before the people with BP in 17 showed up, and as you can imagine, and mass confusion ensued. The FAs didn't know about the equipment change, and neither did the GAs. They both sort of threw their hands up and said, we can't force people to move. Then the people who were supposed to be in 16 showed up. On this aircraft there is no 16F, due to the FA jumpseat. Of course someone was assigned 16F. AND, the person who was assigned 17A was 12 years old (not legal for the exit row). These two things finally caused the FAs and GAs to have to do something. Thanks to some very accommodating people all around, everything worked out. Additionally, the flight was on time and we made our dinner reservations. So I have nothing to complain about, and much to be thankful for. Not sure what I would have done if we would have had to take our "ticketed" seat. The FA said something about refunding our fees for the exit row, but I mean I certainly wouldn't have booked RV over AA if we had to sit in standard Y. I would have bitten the bullet and flown AA at a worse time for us. Again, everything worked out, so I am happy. I just can't understand how an airline can make an equipment change and not tell the station?? They had at least several hours to try to sort it out (there was no swap on the ground), but chose instead to just let things play out.
Tonight is AC818 YUL-VCE. Looking forward to it.
We arrived at FLL and had to go to the ticket counter to get our BP. As expected, the TA noted our exit row seats and made sure we were okay with our responsibilities. So far, so good.
We boarded on time, but immediately noticed a problem. Row 18 was not an exit row. Row 17 was. Obviously an equipment change. The people boarding right in front of us had the same issue. But even more of an issue for them, because one of them was 6'5" (196 cm). We collectively decided to sit in row 17 while we waited for things to get sorted out (I mean, the tall guy had no choice). It wasn't long before the people with BP in 17 showed up, and as you can imagine, and mass confusion ensued. The FAs didn't know about the equipment change, and neither did the GAs. They both sort of threw their hands up and said, we can't force people to move. Then the people who were supposed to be in 16 showed up. On this aircraft there is no 16F, due to the FA jumpseat. Of course someone was assigned 16F. AND, the person who was assigned 17A was 12 years old (not legal for the exit row). These two things finally caused the FAs and GAs to have to do something. Thanks to some very accommodating people all around, everything worked out. Additionally, the flight was on time and we made our dinner reservations. So I have nothing to complain about, and much to be thankful for. Not sure what I would have done if we would have had to take our "ticketed" seat. The FA said something about refunding our fees for the exit row, but I mean I certainly wouldn't have booked RV over AA if we had to sit in standard Y. I would have bitten the bullet and flown AA at a worse time for us. Again, everything worked out, so I am happy. I just can't understand how an airline can make an equipment change and not tell the station?? They had at least several hours to try to sort it out (there was no swap on the ground), but chose instead to just let things play out.
Tonight is AC818 YUL-VCE. Looking forward to it.
But this is why I avoid flying Rouge. The discrepancy between an exit row and non exit row is too huge to risk.
Jul 4, 2022, 4:42 pm
#41
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The question is if the appropriate response is to (a) sit in the assigned seats, alerting the crew, and allowing for resolution or (b) sit in someone else's seats, dumping the problem onto a different set of PAX.
Jul 4, 2022, 4:44 pm
#42
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If this is a regular thing, AC could fix this pretty easily. Do what UA does on many of their planes and fix the row numbers for the exit rows and leave gaps if necessary. Seat numbers don’t need to be sequential.
It might create more reseating needs on an equipment swap but at least those that paid for an exit row wouldn’t arbitrarily lose it if they swap planes.
It might create more reseating needs on an equipment swap but at least those that paid for an exit row wouldn’t arbitrarily lose it if they swap planes.
Jul 4, 2022, 4:58 pm
#43
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 122
Sounds like there’s some semantics here. I think most of us agree:
* OP was entitled to an exit seat because he paid for one. (Entitled doesn’t mean he should actually get one if something like an equipment change happens).
* It was impossible for OP to know if a mistake meant there were more people entitled to an exit seat than exit seats. Including the people assigned the exit seat.
* OP should have sat/stood in their assigned seat while they notified the flight attendants that there was an issue with their seat and then let the FAs figure it out.
* If the people assigned the true exit seat had also paid/were entitled to an exit seat, than OP is out of luck (and literally it’s just bad luck that he was the entitled passenger that gets ‘bumped’) and needs to sit where assigned.
* If the FA couldn’t provide an exit seat (for whatever reason) OP should be entitled to extra compensation (above his seat selection fee). Although probably not a lot more.
* OP was entitled to an exit seat because he paid for one. (Entitled doesn’t mean he should actually get one if something like an equipment change happens).
* It was impossible for OP to know if a mistake meant there were more people entitled to an exit seat than exit seats. Including the people assigned the exit seat.
* OP should have sat/stood in their assigned seat while they notified the flight attendants that there was an issue with their seat and then let the FAs figure it out.
* If the people assigned the true exit seat had also paid/were entitled to an exit seat, than OP is out of luck (and literally it’s just bad luck that he was the entitled passenger that gets ‘bumped’) and needs to sit where assigned.
* If the FA couldn’t provide an exit seat (for whatever reason) OP should be entitled to extra compensation (above his seat selection fee). Although probably not a lot more.
Jul 4, 2022, 5:38 pm
#44
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And they did. OP endured what is a minor inconvenienced. (the 4 booked into Jrg however...)
The question is if the appropriate response is to (a) sit in the assigned seats, alerting the crew, and allowing for resolution or (b) sit in someone else's seats, dumping the problem onto a different set of PAX.
The question is if the appropriate response is to (a) sit in the assigned seats, alerting the crew, and allowing for resolution or (b) sit in someone else's seats, dumping the problem onto a different set of PAX.
I would have approached an FA and/or stayed in the aisle, possibly blocking the way until an FA shows up, and tell the FA that I won't take that seat since it's not what I paid for. And let the FA deal with it. Admittedly, incurring the risk that they might offload me. Although I would think they would not offload before at least giving a chance to travel in the non-premium assigned seat.
Jul 4, 2022, 6:10 pm
#45
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