rstruthe

Not sure where to post this, please move if desired.
I have a flight with EY a few months out in F, EY just nixed first on the route. Booking on there site now shows J but no one has contacted me and no refund.
Ticket was issued by aeroplan.
Normally this would be 75% downgrade compensation, rules state paid in cash.
Due to COVID will eu261 apply?
If so, how is cash value calculated? One way F ticket was selling about about $11,500 USD prior to them pulling it. Would that mean 8,500 USD compensation? I’ll fly J for that!
Other airlines do fly the route with F, Singapore, Swiss, LH, but none release seats to aeroplan except LH 10-14 days prior to travel, would aeroplan get a revenue seat to cover this case? Should I call them or wait it out and see what happens?
Thanks!

The Lev

Might help if you post the route you are supposed to be flying.

I suspect that Aeroplan will try to downgrade you to J and ask you to write in and ask for a refund of the points differential after the flight. If the flight is from/to the EU (not LHR thanks to Brexit), you might be able to invoke EU261 but Aeroplan is unlikely to cough up for that willingly. Also most unlikely that they will pay for F on another star carrier unless it happens to open up on LH.

rankourabu

First, EU261 only applies to cancellation/downgrades within 14 days of departure to/from EU

Second, they will happily issue a refund for the ticket, or a refund in points.

However, I do know someone who Aeroplan bought EK F for when JFKAUH was downgraded. So anything is possible if you are important enough.

Jagboi

The essence of EC261is incorporated into British law now as "The Air Passenger Rights and Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019". Basically changed the amounts payable from Euros to Pounds, but most everything else is the same as before.

rstruthe

Thanks, This is MUC to SIN.

In my other FT reading, downgrade reimbursement of 75% is not the same as compensation under EU261 meaning the 14 day rule does not apply?

nexusCFX

The 14 days doesn't apply to downgrades. IIRC the correct term per the regulations is "reimbursement" rather than compensation and it applies no matter when it occurs or what reason is behind it.

rankourabu

In that case, I am sure Aeroplan will happily reimburse the OP with the difference between F points paid originally and J points required today.
There is no way there will be cash "reimbursement" here.

nexusCFX

For a flight of this distance OP would be owed a 75% refund of their payment for the ticket, which in this case would be points, which would greatly exceed the difference between J and F pricing. However I don't know if the liability falls on Aeroplan/AC or on EY as the operating carrier and it's always much more complex to have these claims dealt with when it's points involved instead of cash. The EU regulations explicitly say that they apply to tickets purchased with mile currency from an airline program.

This would only apply after the flights are actually flown as EY could very well (probably not) decide to put F back and so the OP would fly in F as they expected.

keitherson

Wow.

pentiumvi

I was curious and dug up the actual EC261 text. It states that for downgrades, the operating carrier shall reimburse X% of the price of the ticket, by means of cash, bank transfer, bank orders or bank cheques.
Have there been case precedence where it was ruled that the reimbursement should follow original payment method? Getting points refund for an award ticket seems intuitive, but seemingly against the written regulations.

That being said, I do recall reading some DPs about being reimbursed in points (I believe from BA).

With regards to which carrier to claim reimbursement, it's pretty clear from EC261 that the onus is on the operating air carrier, which in this case would be EY. Now how this would work out in reality is probably anyone's guess.

There are basically a few options I can imagine:

• Fight for EC261 reimbursement from EY - Not sure what kind of precedence EY has with regards to paying out EC261 claims, but given they're not an EU airline and this is an award ticket, I think may be an uphill battle.
• Ask AP for a refund of point difference between F and J - Easiest and most likely to succeed option
• Find a new route with award availability - You'll basically need to keep an eye out for LH F availability and call AP to change to that if/when it becomes available.
• Ask AP to put you on revenue F flight - Apparently this has been done for others, but I wouldn't hold my breath for it

expert7700

So OP can try asking Aeroplan for an F routing with no additional points spend....

Or fly the route and file a carrier claim and ask Aeroplan for 75% of the points you used for your one way (or round trip if both were downgraded). I suspect an uphill battle either way.

I would get as much documentation as possible that says the carrier downgraded F to J for operational reasons. With a points booking I doubt you can just hire an EC claims company on a contingency basis to handle filing a suit for you.

The old vs current Aeroplan pricing doesn't come into play at all. Nor does the cash pricing of J or F tickets
I wouldn't rush to ask Aeroplan for the relatively small difference from F to J because that may be akin to accepting a schedule change.

YOWgary

Of the Aeroplan-bookable carriers between MUC and SIN, LX and SQ don't make award F available to partners, LH only opens F award space at T-14, and NH is only F as far as Haneda.

Add my ten cents to the pile betting against AP forcing open revenue F space to fix this.

rstruthe

Thanks all, I would highly doubt AP opens anything at a revenue level, not holding my breath!

I have had luck getting the 75% reimbursement on BA when purchased with Avios. On a J to Y downgrade, along with a 6 hour delay, I managed to get 75% of the avios back on the segment plus the delay compensation paid in British pounds. That was easier as it was with BA all the way. This was after arbitration, and arbitration ruled the reimbursement should be paid in miles. Unfortunately that was a downgrade on LHR to AMS after an ORD to LHR in F, so the reimbursement was almost zilch!

This is definitely more convoluted with two non-related parties. My best guess is EY will offer something in terms of a jesture (flight credit, etc.) and it would be simplest to take it and run.
Of course watching to see if LH opens F back up on this route would be my preference, but I don't see that changing before the end of the summer.

I'm also watching to see if I can grab a CX F seat through HKG which would work for me! If I can grab that, then I will just take an AP refund and use it later!

Often1

EC 261/2004 only applies to the operating carrier. OP will need to pursue EY for the 75% reimbursement (not compensation) and that has nothing to do with AP.

AP on the other hand is not likely to do anything other than refund the miles difference between F & J. That may cause EY to later assert that OP accepted the mileage refund as reimbursement. On the other hand, if OP does not seek a refund and larter is unsuccessful in pursuing EY for a reimbursement, he will have nothing.

I suggest asking AP to reroute in F (OP will need to do the legwork and propose the routing). If that is denied as it almost certainly will be as these are different times, I would fly as ticketed in J and sort this after the trip.

As this trip is nor for a few months there are likely to be other changes and thus any major effort now will simply need to be repeated soon enough.

nexusCFX

I should have been clear that on that point I was basing it on past experiences I've observed while then regulation makes that mention of cash like you say but doesn't explain how it should be applied to a booking with points, despite explicitly outlining that said regulations do apply to those tickets as well. Like you mentioned, with BA I've heard it generally has been settled in points and it sounds like the OP has also experienced that in arbitration.